Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#15322 of 24726 Re: Hybrid starts a FIRE!!!???!!! [oac]
May 03, 2006 (10:43 pm)
Thanks for the *refresher*.... Great, I did write such back in Nov 2005. Anecdotal evidence did show (and still does show) that the levels of interest on Edmund's for the S550 v LS460/600 are far different.
But here is the thing OAC, nno one said anything about who had the greater interest, ever. You're changing the points during the debate here and I think you know this. When did I ever argue that the S-Class had more interest than the LS? At no point did I say or even imply that.
The point was that the amount of posts on a particular mesg board really has nothing to do with how well the car will actually do in the marketplace. Your implication was that a lack of posts on the 07's S board somehow spelled trouble for the new S-Class in the marketplace, yet the exact opposite has been the case so far. That was the point. Oh, and on the 07 LS board there is much more activity for sure, but like I stated way back when its usually the same folks posting daily, hardly a indication of much either.
Both of these cars have a such a following and track record to the point where we know they're going to sell so trying to imply that the S was in trouble due to a lack of posts here at Edmunds was really reaching.
This never had anything to do with "who has the most interest" here at Edmunds.
A poster on the 2007 LS board from Japan did say that Lexus is stopping production of LS430 and ramping up LS460 due to a higher-than-anticipated level of interest from the buying public. Such anecdotal evidence supports my previous theory that the level of interest in the LS will far outweigh that of the new S.
I have to remind you that MB and buyers are running into demand-based "problems" with the S-Class also. Good or bad, Mercedes badly underestimated the demand for fully loaded S550s and thus has a backlog of orders, this according to actual buyers/owners at places like MBWorld and other dedicated MB sites.
Lexus stopping production of the LS430 to start building the LS460 is a natural progression to a new model so please don't hype it up to be some kind of gigantic shift in the way carmakers do business. This happens at every company with every model when a new model is about to go into production. Why hype it up be something that it isn't?
By the end of 2007, we will know for sure which of these cars has WON the battle of the titans in the HELM space, at least in the NA market. Wanna bet if all these anecdotal evidence points to a winner already ?
Depends on what the criteria is. If we're going to talk sales then I'll already give you that since the 86K S550 looks to be the entry price for the S-Class for the foreseable future. The LS460/L probably won't cost that much unless it is L model and fully loaded, but we'll see.
#15323 of 24726 Re: Relative Value [blkhemi]
May 03, 2006 (10:47 pm)
But here is my biggest blunder yet for the S550: Why is it that the previous S430/500 could be equipped no-cost with 4Matic and the new S550 tacks on a $3k tariff to have the safety of AWD. M-B says the 4Matic will account for 20% of all S550 sales. They may have a tougher time moving them, then, again, this is MB were talking about........
Well that was only done for the last couple of model years on the W220 as an incentive to keep them selling. Prior to that it as an extra-cost option.
The new LS460 appears not to have AWD so the S550 4Matic will likely be in hot demand for those who really new AWD.
I just wish Audi would promote Quattro (A8 in this case) more in certain MB strongholds in the North and Northeast.
#15324 of 24726 Re: sales number and price premium is all it matters [oac]
May 03, 2006 (10:52 pm)
Really ? This is the reason for Lexus' existence ??? As a lower-priced version of MB ? Shocking !!!!
Is this you're way of saying that Lexus didn't come to be based on offering what they think is the equivalent to a MB for a cheaper price? If so you're mistaken on one of the key building blocks of your fav brand.
This is solely bcos MB rips off its buyers with everything as options. Geez... Imagine having leather as an option on a $36K MB ! BTW, Edmund's TMV has the C350 starting at $36,427, the IS350 at $35,194, the 330i at $35,157, and the A4 at $35,318.... Pretty much a-wash for all these cars. That MB mystique and brand doesn't amount to much in the lower cadre, I suppose.
Do we really want to get into the options that Lexus offers on the IS or LS? You write this as if Lexus doesn't offer any options. Sure they often have more standard equipment true, but they aren't option-free either. Quoting a bunch of base prices doesn't change this or disprove what I stated earlier about a Lexus still being cheaper in most cases when it and the German cars are comparably equipped. The IS350 is really the only one that stands sticker to sticker with the Germans when fully loaded because the GS and current LS surely don't compared to a S-Class or 7-Series.
#15325 of 24726 Re: Relative Value [blckislandguy]
May 03, 2006 (11:04 pm)
I'll defer to you on this, but as I recall the 4-Matic came with a lesser (4 speed?) tranny than the 6 speed (?) that came on the non AWD S. So, you could get AWD or a better tranny for the same price. Now, apparently, you get the good tranny with either the AWD or the standard config. This might explain the price difference.
Well it was acutally a 5-speed on the 4Matics vs the 7-Speed on the RWD models. Ouch, please don't say 4-speed automatic those went out in MB's back in the early to mid nineties...lol!
The price difference or lack thereof on the previous S-Class' final model years was done as an incentive to keep the car selling. This S has to go 7 years so I'm sure they'll make it a no-cost option again once the W221 gets tired.
#15326 of 24726 Re: sales number and price premium is all it matters [ljflx]
May 03, 2006 (11:14 pm)
Finally something I can agree with you on! I've been reading this between Steve and Tagman and I'd have to say too it wouldn't be wise for Lexus to price their cars at the same level because one of their main selling points was the price advantage vs Mercedes which allows them to price their cars at or above others in the HELM sector this time around, but still cheaper than Mercedes. You and Tagman are correct on this one it is a brilliant strategy that doesn't need tinkering with. The really briliant part is that this allows Lexus to always be a few dollars below a Mercedes but over Jaguar and Audi and roughly in the same general area as BMW. That equals lots of $$$ for them.
Well actually there is one point in your post I don't fully agree with. I think at this point MB doesn't just say lets price the cars wherever we want to because as you know their whole structure (as is all Germans) is much more problematic (unions/exchange rates/ etc.) than the Japanese's is in general so they really can't scale back things to far. German quality costs and more so for BMW and MB than Audi because Audi has VW to spread the costs around. MB has done some price checking reality with the new S to a degree, but most of that price difference I don't think is there because they want it there IMO. A Mercedes has always been more expensive than all the other cars in the segment and like you stated in the past it was clear as to why. Of course we both know of their troubles over the last few years, but as far as sheer build quality goes they've correct their ways and the reliability results (on the new S at least) are still pending. My point being is that if they correct this before everyone in the free world has a problem with a Benz they'll always be able to charge a premuim over the competition. Now if the new S turns about to be like the previous one (which it isn't as far as build is concerned) in reliability then yeah you're correct about their ability to keep charging a premium over the competition. MB's way of pricing their cars goes back a long time and people have bought them at those prices for just as long so its going to take more than a few bad models during a certain amount of years to change that forever. Other than the W220's reliablity and initial build quality the S-Class' rep is in tact one model isn't going to destroy the years and years of rep this car has built up ruling the luxury car market.
#15327 of 24726 Re: sales number and price premium is all it matters [tagman]
May 03, 2006 (11:22 pm)
Great post. Value, relative to a Mercedes has always been a huge part of why people who've shopped both buy a Lexus. Not the only reason as OAC points out but it is a factor for many. You see it in posts a lot here and on other boards.
The meaning of "value" I think takes on a different meaning here compared to a Camry/Accord/Altima buyer who is likely looking the just the payments and to a lesser degree at the actual cars as to what they have or don't have in the way of styling, features, performance etc. etc. Just what I think.
#15328 of 24726 Re: sales number and price premium is all it matters [stevekilburn]
May 04, 2006 (6:38 am)
Now is the time, NOW! If lexus can shatter the cut-rate value myth, then it will truly gain a quantum leap to the next string of evolutionary spirit.
What do you mean by this? Do you mean that you think Lexus should price its products on par with MB?
#15329 of 24726 Re: sales number and price premium is all it matters [syswei]
May 04, 2006 (7:35 am)
"Now is the time, NOW! If lexus can shatter the cut-rate value myth, then it will truly gain a quantum leap to the next string of evolutionary spirit."
I think Lexus in more interested in profitability and has zero interest in steve's pricing obsession.
#15331 of 24726 Re: sales number and price premium is all it matters [syswei]
May 04, 2006 (8:50 am)
Yep, that's what he means. Gotta raise the prices to appeal to Europeans and those of us who savor the philosophical, cultural and intellectual essence of firing up stogies with 100-dollar bills.
Hey, remember the movie Back To School when Rodney Dangerfield was making a hero sandwich, pulling the inside dough out of the bread loaf to fit extra cold cuts, then saying "I learned this in Europe"? Maybe that's kind of in line with what Steve is talking about.
It's the genius factor. Perhaps we all need to go back to school.