Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#15018 of 24723 Re: The New Mercedes? [syswei]
Apr 23, 2006 (12:47 pm)
I still think that one reason MB might be holding off on an S450 might be to force the auto rags to use the S550 in comparos...so that MB has a better chance of winning.
Yeah I've thought about that one too. I really don't blame them if they are because all this talk about the LS beating the S-Class has been incorrectly hyped for years when the LS has only beaten one member of the "S-Class", the S430. It has never (that I've seen) beaten the S500, but I have seen the S500 beat the LS430 in MT when the LS430 and S500 were fairly new.
Everything I've read at other MB sites suggests that with around 25K sold so far (worldwide) this year that production is at full capacity so an entry-level S isn't needed right now. The S450 was to be a U.S. only model and it isn't needed now obviously. I suspect we'll see a S450 after MB goes direct-injection on all their petrol engines which will be in 2008 so it we be more competitive hp wise.
#15019 of 24723 Re: The New Mercedes? [oac]
Apr 23, 2006 (12:56 pm)
Things will be very different this time for sure. The S550 won't be the oldest car in the class like the S430 was and it will be a current model year version unlike that 2003 S430 they used.
#15020 of 24723 Re: The New Mercedes? [merc1]
Apr 23, 2006 (2:07 pm)
Any bets on when the Lexcuses will start?
#15021 of 24723 Re: The New Mercedes? [designman]
Apr 23, 2006 (2:29 pm)
My guess is that victory between the S550 and LS460 will depend on how much the reviewers value the price difference between the two cars. If price is no object, the win will probably go to Mercedes. If it is, Lexus may have a shot. Who wins what in which automag ultimately isn't that terribly important to me. The Lexus wins in my own garage.
#15022 of 24723 Re: The New Mercedes? [lexusguy]
Apr 23, 2006 (2:46 pm)
Well said. Is there any chance you won't like what you see when you get to road test the LS or are you confident it will do the trick when it arrives? Poor little 750, A8 and XJ won't be good fuh nuttin' in the comparos? I can see the LS faring better in MT and struggling in R&T. The latter take the "Track" part of their name quite seriously. You have to catch the reviewers who like lux to begin with. I guess this isn't an easy class to review objectively.
Apr 23, 2006 (3:12 pm)
I've finally received my info pack on the soon-to-be released Jaguar XK. The car is incredibly different from the one it replaces. Torsional stiffness is said to be up 60%(what's this thing made of, a bank vault). The interior quality is a mix of traditional Jag with a hint of new ideas.
I do have some reservations about it though. IMHO, I think that the engineers could've spent more time focusing on the front-end of the car as it is not befitting of a Jag nor the $70k(est.) asking price, more so a Ford convertible, not Jag. The powertrain, while still refined, want stir up any debates. With only 300-hp(sounds like a lot, but this car ways over 2 tons), it's just not competitve anymore. I know there will be the XKR(and later the XKR-R), but those are forced-induction cars. And with companies like Mercedes switching back to normal aspiration, it seems unnecessary for superchargers and more or less like not spending time or money to develop hi-po sophisticated engines(long ago, this used to be a Jag strong point). And it still has a cloth top, with most every high-luxury switching/ed to hard/steel top. Maybe it's tradition, as Porsche refuses to conform to steel Cab models also(huge performance issue).
But those are small squables. The new XK should be a very good replacement for it's predecessor. Let's just hope they've increased headroom in this one.
#15024 of 24723 Re: The new XK [blkhemi]
Apr 23, 2006 (4:50 pm)
You must see the 2007 Jaguar XK in person. I saw it at the New York Auto Show. Right now, it's one of the best looking cars on the road.
#15025 of 24723 Re: Lexus Engine Evolution [tagman]
Apr 23, 2006 (5:02 pm)
Tagman, torque is not a characteristic associated with high revving V8s. Smoothness, responsiveness, but not torque. The Ford 300 in-line six, for example, is much better in a 0-60 than the Ford 302 V8.
Since the development of the small block Chev V8 in 1955, we have seen an abundance of high revving, oversquare (larger bore than the length of the stroke) V8s. These were developed for HP and packaging reasons, not low end torque. The torque monsters though tend to have longer strokes and are usually in-line sixes. Most Class 8 rigs run big in-line sixes for low end torque and longevity (there is room for more surface area for the rod bearing when you aren't cramming 8 rods in a Vee configuration onto a crankshaft). Have you ever seen an Army Duece and a Half with a V8? No, they want grunt, not revs. On the other hand, many modern V6s are often oversquare because they are literally just a V8 with two cylinders lopped off, eg. the recent Chev and Ford V6s.
#15026 of 24723 Re: The New Mercedes? [designman]
Apr 23, 2006 (5:45 pm)
I guess this isn't an easy class to review objectively.
You are right. But if reviewers start from the basic fact that these cars are "luxury-full-size-sedans", then it makes the S and LS already ahead of the pack. I'd wager that if you pack an 8-speed tranny with a 380HP/370IBft motor, and do a 0-60 in under 5.5s, you'd expect some real performance from the new LS460. If it has any underpinnings like in the new IS, then it should fare well in the comparo. The new S550 is a truly nice and beautiful car, excellent reviews befitting this car, but it has yet to go head-to-head against the competition. There is where we'll see how truly great these cars are.
Lexcuses, you say ? We'll see who would be doing this.... What would Merc1 have to say if the S550 doesn't win out over the LS460L ? I guess you can always use the 8-speed tranny in the LS as an excuse, eh ? But like Lexusguy, the LS460 already won in my garage, as I am biased towards buying this car. But, my wife currently has her sights on the 750i.. Huh ??? I don't get it... I guess we'll see soon enough...
#15027 of 24723 Re: The new XK [blkhemi]
Apr 23, 2006 (5:50 pm)
I too don't care much for the front end of the new XK. The nose is straight off the Ford Taurus in design. They had to do something different with the nose to meet the European pedestrian safety standards I know, but they could have at least made it look better than that. As far as I'm concerned that the only thing wrong with the new XK and even the snout looks (well hidden) better with darker colors. The new XK isn't supposed to be a 2-ton vehicle, where did you see that?