Edmunds.com | Inside Line | Auto Observer Your Account | Help | Directory
You are here:
![[F]](http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/media/townhall/webxicons/site.gif){kind=small}
Forums
Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
|
Replying to: oac (Apr 12, 2006 9:23 pm) But that is my point 4.7-4.9 isn't in the S600's range, the S600 easily beats those numbers every single time and 430hp isn't "S600-like" power its more like 760Li/A8 W12 power. Yes for some it will be a viable alternative, never disputed that. The rest of the usual Lexus attributes aren't in contention either, but as the market proves they aren't exactly all conquering. M
|
|
|
Replying to: merc1 (Apr 12, 2006 9:29 pm) But its fun to debate without acrimony... Gotta love that...
|
|
|
Replying to: oac (Apr 12, 2006 9:35 pm) Big difference there OAC, the S500 had a measily 12hp advantage over the LS430 when it has 290hp and the torque advantage wasn't that much either. I don't recall anyone testing the 04-06' S500 with the 7-Speed either. That C&D comparo used a 5-speed S430 so I'm not so sure if your claim about the LS430 and S500 is correct. The S600 looks to have at least 70hp on the LS600h, not sure about the torque yet which is where Lexus will need to come out strong against the S600. But its fun to debate without acrimony... Gotta love that... Yes isn't it wonderful....consider this latest  M |
|
|
Replying to: merc1 (Apr 12, 2006 8:38 pm) merc, here's how it is with the hybrids. So far the Prius and the '06 Honda Civic Hybrid are in significant demand. The upcoming Honda Fit Hybrid will with certainty be in significant demand as well. What this shows is that, at least so far, the hybrid option can do very well at the economy tier. The Ford Escape Hybrid and Toyota Highlander Hybrid and the Honda Accord Hybrid have not done well at all and there are a number of reasons. The upcoming Camry Hybrid will prove the REAL hybrid potential in middle ground. If it pulls it off, then the playing field is wide open. If not, then it will show that the hybrids are polarized to the lower tier . . . and upper tier IF,IF,IF the LS600h is successful. Personally, I believe that the LS hybrid will do very well, and will establish a genuine upper tier market. To be seen, of course. If all the hurdles are cleared and a 50 state diesel is possible MB, BMW and Audi will sell diesels in good numbers. I know Mercedes will, wanna place a gentleman's bet on it? The Mercedes BluTech diesel is very likely to be available in ALL 50 states. This is what I was mentioning to ljflx earlier when I indicated that I don't want to commit to anything until I know more about diesel availability. I have driven the current 320cdi and it is a fabulous powerplant. The more significant question to this forum is whether or not it shows up in the S. The next question is what progress has Mercedes made in the hybrid front? After all, Toyota/Lexus has an enormous treasure of experience with hybrid technology. And what car would Mercedes utilize it in anyway, and how many years down the pike, if they do something? I think it is most likely Lexus will have the advantage in the hybrid arena, and Mercedes could kick some very serious butt in the diesel arena, if they move forward with it soon enough. TagMan
|
|
|
Replying to: tagman (Apr 12, 2006 9:40 pm) Oh I know the LS600h will do well, likely selling out for the first few years with ease no doubt. GM, DCX, and BMW already know this which is why they've had to join forces on the whole hybrid issue. You know there is real sense of urgency anytime you get Mercedes-Benz and BMW to work together on anything. They all say they'll have hybrids on sale for the 2008 model year. Either way they won't be going for absolute power they'll be geared towards economy. I suspect that Mercedes hasn't been able to certify the Bluetecs for NY/Cali type markets yet because all the buzz is indicating that the GL/R/ML/E diesels that go on sale this fall will still be 45-state models only with the certification for the other 5 states coming for the 2008 model year. Dicey information at best at this point. I don't think any of the European carmakers will ever commit the resources to topple Toyota in hybrids because they believe in diesels and every market but the U.S. re-affirms that belief. Now I do expect Mercedes and BMW to do a diesel-hybrid which will be the ultimate in torque and MPG, but that is still likely 2-3 years off and there will still be the diesel issue to contend with. M |
|
|
Replying to: merc1 (Apr 12, 2006 8:38 pm) As of now hybrids are not very practical vehicles. I would try an LS 600h out of curiosity, but I would also be opening the trunk-probably the place the Lexus salesman would be sitting on. I don't foresee hybrids outselling their regular engine counterparts anytime soon.
|
|
|
(This crowd has gone deathly silent....) The car is MUCH better styled than the 760 or S600. This is a good thing!  I'm fully confident it has enough features to handle the S600, head-to-head. If it starts anywhere south of $100k, it is a great value compared to the Germans, especially the S600. My problem is, if it's not going to be out until next April, why put it now? I don't se how this helps the 460, which isn't out either. It hurts it more than helps it! I would've done this half-hearted intro in Tokyo, and then the full specs in Detroit next year. Then in Ny next year, you can say "Arriving in showrooms this week!", or whatever. I would feel better if the said "450+HP". I want to be sure it exceeds the 760, plus gets 60-70% better mileage (real-world). Since the V12 in the Benz is twin-turbo charged, Mercedes has no intention of losing a HP war, and Lexus doesn't need, or wnat to fight that. The design is elegant and expensive. They styling is clean, confident, and two steps above the LS430. The fact that AWD is standard will be big in the Northeast, and Chicago. IF it's going to be $40k less than a S600, similar in size and appointments, to some better looking, maybe .5 seconds slower, but maybe 10 MPG more efficient, and has all this hype behind it, with a heavy rep to match, the S600 has a much tougher road to hoe. My pause is more about the marketing this way, at this time. I wouldn't do it this way, with a full year to go, and the 460 not out for 6 months. The 760 is done, and the S600 is walking out of NY with a several limp! There's still some Kool-Aid left. And a smile! DrFill
|
|
|
Replying to: hpowders (Apr 13, 2006 12:14 am) Maybe there will be an S 4-matic in my future after all! Too early to tell, but I will cross shop it whent the time comes. |
|
|
Replying to: drfill (Apr 13, 2006 3:04 am) Saying the LS is better styled (which it isn't) than the new S-Class isn't going to cut it. This car needed 500hp to make the type of splash you anticipated. The 760 is hardly "done" because I'm betting the LS600h still won't match the BMW once the road becomes interesting and with almost equal hp ratings I don't see much advantage other than fuel ecomony for the LS600h. Since the V12 in the Benz is twin-turbo charged, Mercedes has no intention of losing a HP war, and Lexus doesn't need, or wnat to fight that. If that is what you have to tell yourself to be ok with 430hp then ok. M |
|
|
Up against the S600 and 760? Do they even sell 500 cars a year in the US between the two of them? I wouldn’t be surprised if the LS600h does very well or bombs. BMW can hardly sell a car over $100K. Let’s see what Lexus can do. You know, this car is in a totally different realm now, and the people who are used to spending this kind of money are Euro-car buyers. Can they turn Lexican? Are they excited about hybrid tech? And I’m not talking about the Hollywood greenies. The LS600h is on the hybrid leading edge and from this vista it is interesting to watch. Other than that I think it is uneventful from a sales point of view. The hybrids at the low end are more significant. Tagman, your Panamera could very well have a hybrid at some point. As you may know, it is expected to share an engine with Cayenne which will be the first recipient of Porsche’s foray into hybrid. I’m thinking Panamera could wind up with a lot of variants. It had better. I mean why limit the market to an exotic? Even Cayenne has 4 variants ranging from $42-112K. So, are you putting your deposit on the $150K Panamera Turbo S or what?
|
|
New? Join Now!
Forum Tools
Search Forums
Browse by Vehicle
2011 Audi A8
2010 BMW 7 Series
2008 Jaguar XJ-Series
2010 Lexus LS 460
2010 Mercedes-Benz S-Class
2006 Volkswagen Phaeton
2009 Maserati Quattroporte
2010 Mercedes-Benz CL-Class
Browse by Board
Browse by Topic
Today's Chats
