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Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
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Replying to: oac (Apr 12, 2006 8:53 pm) They have to balance all this power while trying to get the right MPG numbers not an easy thing to do. Turn down the hp and give up performance to the competition and run the risk of making the car pointless next to the LS460, or turn up the hp and kill the MPG numbers in order to give comparable performance to a V12. The engineering in play here is unearthly for sure, I'll give you that. I can see a good number of S550/750Li/A8 intenders being interested in this car no doubt, it is still impressive though I expected more. M
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Replying to: merc1 (Apr 12, 2006 8:38 pm) There may NOT be a GS460 afterall... Lexus may simply one-up the market by putting the 5L V8 in the new GS and IS, and make these the sporty versions, while the GS450H becomes the cousin to the 2007 GS350 arriving this Fall. Now the LS600h may be a different story, but the S600 obviously has nothing worry about nor does the 760Li, but the LS600h does make an interesting alternative to the S550/750Li. Still speculation for now, but something tells me MB is not thinking like you. They will see the LS600hL as a direct competitor to the S600. The LS460L is a match for the S550/750iL, so expect the 600hL to go right against the S600/760iL/A8L... Don't think so ? Just wait and see...
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Replying to: oac (Apr 12, 2006 9:14 pm) Yeah we'll see because as of right now 430hp ain't gonna cut it against the S600, IMO. If they price it like a S600 then maybe, but we know they won't do that. I suspect the LS600h will be a 100K car, not 140K. I'll even give you that in a sense or in most people's mind it will compete with the S600 because they're calling it a "600" too. I won't get into what I think about that, but of course many will shop both cars, but let me be clear it is the performance is where I don't think the LS600h will be able to keep pace with the S600. Now a GS500 sounds good, but what would it compete with? Gonna have to be hella powerful to contend with the E63 or M5. Nah I think you'll see a GS460 with 380h to compete with the 360hp 550i and 382hp E550. The GS450h isn't produced in enough numbers to replace the GS430/460 in that space. M |
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Replying to: merc1 (Apr 12, 2006 9:06 pm) I don't recall this at all sine I am no GS fan, but no point to argue this  Ok they're saying "over" 430hp, so maybe 435-450 at best, that won't be "V12-like" performance at Mercedes-Benz. Yeah BMW and Audi (sorry guys) will have something to contend with in a straight line, but the outgoing S600 was a 4.2-4.4 sec 0-60 car, not 4.7-4.9, not sure where you got those numbers.. I said the 4.7 - 4.9s was in S600 range, not exactly, lol ! But you know HP ain't the be-all for performance of a car. The S600 will be the top dog, but expect the 600hL to be a worthy adversary. And it will be at least 20K cheaper to boot... If you can get S600-like power, performance, luxury and ride, with Lexus' reliability, safety and build quality, all wrapped in a hip and fashionable hybrid/AWD with SULEV, and mid-20 mpg.. That would be plenty nice, don't you think ?
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Replying to: oac (Apr 12, 2006 9:23 pm) But that is my point 4.7-4.9 isn't in the S600's range, the S600 easily beats those numbers every single time and 430hp isn't "S600-like" power its more like 760Li/A8 W12 power. Yes for some it will be a viable alternative, never disputed that. The rest of the usual Lexus attributes aren't in contention either, but as the market proves they aren't exactly all conquering. M
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Replying to: merc1 (Apr 12, 2006 9:29 pm) But its fun to debate without acrimony... Gotta love that...
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Replying to: oac (Apr 12, 2006 9:35 pm) Big difference there OAC, the S500 had a measily 12hp advantage over the LS430 when it has 290hp and the torque advantage wasn't that much either. I don't recall anyone testing the 04-06' S500 with the 7-Speed either. That C&D comparo used a 5-speed S430 so I'm not so sure if your claim about the LS430 and S500 is correct. The S600 looks to have at least 70hp on the LS600h, not sure about the torque yet which is where Lexus will need to come out strong against the S600. But its fun to debate without acrimony... Gotta love that... Yes isn't it wonderful....consider this latest  M |
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Replying to: merc1 (Apr 12, 2006 8:38 pm) merc, here's how it is with the hybrids. So far the Prius and the '06 Honda Civic Hybrid are in significant demand. The upcoming Honda Fit Hybrid will with certainty be in significant demand as well. What this shows is that, at least so far, the hybrid option can do very well at the economy tier. The Ford Escape Hybrid and Toyota Highlander Hybrid and the Honda Accord Hybrid have not done well at all and there are a number of reasons. The upcoming Camry Hybrid will prove the REAL hybrid potential in middle ground. If it pulls it off, then the playing field is wide open. If not, then it will show that the hybrids are polarized to the lower tier . . . and upper tier IF,IF,IF the LS600h is successful. Personally, I believe that the LS hybrid will do very well, and will establish a genuine upper tier market. To be seen, of course. If all the hurdles are cleared and a 50 state diesel is possible MB, BMW and Audi will sell diesels in good numbers. I know Mercedes will, wanna place a gentleman's bet on it? The Mercedes BluTech diesel is very likely to be available in ALL 50 states. This is what I was mentioning to ljflx earlier when I indicated that I don't want to commit to anything until I know more about diesel availability. I have driven the current 320cdi and it is a fabulous powerplant. The more significant question to this forum is whether or not it shows up in the S. The next question is what progress has Mercedes made in the hybrid front? After all, Toyota/Lexus has an enormous treasure of experience with hybrid technology. And what car would Mercedes utilize it in anyway, and how many years down the pike, if they do something? I think it is most likely Lexus will have the advantage in the hybrid arena, and Mercedes could kick some very serious butt in the diesel arena, if they move forward with it soon enough. TagMan
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Replying to: tagman (Apr 12, 2006 9:40 pm) Oh I know the LS600h will do well, likely selling out for the first few years with ease no doubt. GM, DCX, and BMW already know this which is why they've had to join forces on the whole hybrid issue. You know there is real sense of urgency anytime you get Mercedes-Benz and BMW to work together on anything. They all say they'll have hybrids on sale for the 2008 model year. Either way they won't be going for absolute power they'll be geared towards economy. I suspect that Mercedes hasn't been able to certify the Bluetecs for NY/Cali type markets yet because all the buzz is indicating that the GL/R/ML/E diesels that go on sale this fall will still be 45-state models only with the certification for the other 5 states coming for the 2008 model year. Dicey information at best at this point. I don't think any of the European carmakers will ever commit the resources to topple Toyota in hybrids because they believe in diesels and every market but the U.S. re-affirms that belief. Now I do expect Mercedes and BMW to do a diesel-hybrid which will be the ultimate in torque and MPG, but that is still likely 2-3 years off and there will still be the diesel issue to contend with. M |
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Replying to: merc1 (Apr 12, 2006 8:38 pm) As of now hybrids are not very practical vehicles. I would try an LS 600h out of curiosity, but I would also be opening the trunk-probably the place the Lexus salesman would be sitting on. I don't foresee hybrids outselling their regular engine counterparts anytime soon.
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