Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#14672 of 24726 Re: Merc, I already won this argument! [drfill]
Apr 10, 2006 (8:42 pm)
Re: the SC vs. the SL, part of the reason for the HUGE success of the SC is the SL-matching V8 within the Sc430 engine bay. Whether the Lexus built the SC to compete with the SL primarily, at $25k less is debatable. But the SL, for 3 years, would struggle to outrun the Lexus. I'm sure this was used in "walkarounds" often.
Won? Won what? The bottom line is that the SL is the better car and has been since day one. For all the speed matching potential you claim the SC430 has it can't use it any way other than in a straight line since it has little to no handling compared to the SL. Again time to update the rant, the SL550 will easily dispense with any SC430s that dare act like they have any "sport" in their DNA. Doc, the SL is a better car than the SC430, period. The SC430 scores last and the SL wins any and everytime they've faced each other. GAME OVER. THE END.
Re: the original SC, having been knocked-off several times (Mazda MX-6 and Buick Riviera the most blatant), and being called, at $45k, "Possibly the best car on the planet!" by C&D, the 1992-99 SC resume wants for nothing. It had to be re-engineered to bring the latest safety equipment cars started to bear in '95+, and Lexus had other plans.
Not a one of thoese cars even looks anything like the Lexus SC, especially the Buick. Buick's copy target was Jaguar during those days not Lexus. The last part about the SC having to be re-engineered is a nice, grand even, excuse. Toyota has more money than anyone else and can "engineer" a car to meet whatever standards they want. Period.
As Mercedes CLK has ALWAYS shown, matching style with the original SC was futile, so just slap two doors on an E, and call it a day!
First off the CLK isn't based on the E-Class and how do you know that Mercedes was trying to match the SC400? The fact remains that the original CLK from 1998-2002 saw the SC400 off the market, as to which looks better we will agree to disagree there. Not knocking the original SC400 either, I liked the car myself, but it wasn't heaven sent like you portray it to be.
Considering Mercedes had several years to build an SC competitor, the 1999 CLK430 was another weak effort, hoplessly derivitive of the E-Class sedan, as was it's forebearer.
Fact check, the 1999 CLK430 was NOT derived from the E-Class. It was derived from the C-Class platform, unlike the previous 300CE/E320 Coupe which was derived from the E-Class.
Since you brought up the CL (Comparing it to cars costing half as much smacks of desperation, Merc. You know better!), if Lexus built cars that cost as much as S550, SL550, or CL55, you wouldn't be so apt to hide in an Ivory tower.
I'm not comparing the two cars as a whole, only their styling which the CL blows away any Lexus, still to this day. Talk about desperation at least I can point to a current Mercedes that has some looks and not live in the past about a car long since out of production, that my friend is desperation in trying to cover for the current SC430's lame duck styling and driving experience. The SC400 does nothing for the SC430.
Mercedes better have an anwser for the 600h! That could be 10-12k sales a year, by itself.
No doubt the car will be a hit, but why is that Mercedes is the only one that has to "come up with something"? Mercedes won't have a direct answer for the LS600h, as will no other manufacturer. You know how Lexus doesn't have an answer for a boatload of Mercedes and BMW models.
#14673 of 24726 Re: ljflx [oac]
Apr 10, 2006 (8:48 pm)
Merc says that people are noticing and praising Audi for its interior quality and technology innovations. I'd like to see the sampling of the buying public that agrees with that. Edmunds is a very small, narrow, viewpoint of the whole market. Most of us are car junkies.... The real world buyers are nothing like us... So I suspect Audi's interior quality and technology hasn't helped it much, but with the VW albatross on Audi's neck, little wonder it has had problem gaining traction (no pun intended) here in the NA market. It may well be too late for Audi to gain any respect, unless Lexus stumbles badly, and Acura and Infiniti fall off the face of the earth. Audi, totally overshadowed by its higher brand German counterparts...
Well I think all you'd have to do is look on any Audi board here or on Audi forum on the net. Most people here are indeed average buyers and they aren't car junkies in the least, especially not here. The new A8 doing way better than the previous car proves that Audi is doing something right, though at a slower pace than MB/BMW/Lexus. Lexus doesn't have to "stumble" for Audi to gain any respect, all Audi has to do is keep building cars like the A8, RS4 (to bolster the performance imagine, something Lexus knows very little about right now) and dealership satisfaction stories are just that, they don't vary from car junkies or brand junkies to the average joe that posts here. A buyer is either satisfied with the dealer of they aren't, doesn't matter what "type" of buyer they are per say.
Apr 10, 2006 (9:05 pm)
We've talked about Audi before and reached the same conclusions. Being tied to VW is a liability in image and product to a lot of people. This is just plain old outdated thinking. Audi's calling card is still AWD, but only for people who are seeking AWD. Some, not all, people who don't care for AWD will likely be turned off by Audi forcing it on most of their cars like someone else stated.
Audi's problem is exposure. They simply don't frequent the same circles as Mercedes or BMW and thus don't as much attention. I think a lot of people who bought a recent Audi model were likely pleasantly surprised when they actually decided to look at one. Audis appeal to people who either want AWD standard and to those who are tired of the usual suspects like Mercedes and BMW. This isn't good for "business" per say because they'll always be the underdog and play second fiddle to MB/BMW, but they'll arguably build up a fierecly loyal fanbase.
I also think that Audi's dealer placement has a lot to do with it too, they aren't often included in "dealer's row" in most areas or at least they weren't until very recently.
#14675 of 24726 Re: Audi A8 - my take [volvomax]
Apr 10, 2006 (9:16 pm)
Very accurate IMO. The battles in the 1930's between Benz and Auto Union are the stuff of legend, only Mercedes was able to thrive from it and Audi wasn't. I wonder why that is?
#14676 of 24726 Ok, Merc. Uncle!
Apr 11, 2006 (5:26 am)
I've had more than enough of this argument.
You've gotten in the last word.
Let's not fight anymore.
Let us enjoy the NYIAS together, as friends. Deal?
#14677 of 24726 Welcome back oac
Apr 11, 2006 (5:47 am)
Oac, it's nice to see you back. Yes, I did trade the LS430 but I still have the LS400 so it's a mixed household. My son had the 1992 LS completely redone, every little mechanical and cosmetic flaw was fixed. It looks amazing now.
Here are a few pictures:
The way I see it, I get the best of both worlds, so I'm not complaining. My wife is highly interested in the S430 but this time I decided to put "The Club" on the Benz to stop her from stealing it. Needless to say she wasn't very happy with me.
You know this is the first time I've been able to compare a Lexus vs a Mercedes at length. I've spent quite a few evenings looking at both cars and seeing whether some of the things said here are true.
Here's what I've found: The Benz is definitely more competent at high speeds. It's more nimble and doesn't get pushed easily in crosswinds.
It's also loaded with every safety feature possible. I'm not saying the LS is unsafe, it's just that MB has thought of every little thing.
The Nanotech Paint is great, I don't know why Lexus doesn't put this on their cars. It's also nice to play DVD Audio disks upfront. The Multifunction Display has those Lexus CBest settings integrated so you can change them without going to the dealer.
Now some of the bad: The Comand system isn't very user friendly. Their phone system is quite outdated. The Cupholders are really bizzare. Way too complex. What is funny though is that the ashtray design is one of the best I've seen. The glovebox is tiny, and there isn't that much room for storage. Reliability is a concern. I have a hard time believing this car will be trouble free for >3 yrs.
The Lexus has a different philosophy. Everything about this car exudes Quality. All the controls feel like they'll last forever. They've thought of every little convenience feature possible.
This car is still amazingly quiet, quieter than the Benz, and even my LS430. You can turn on the stereo get out of the car, and you will not hear anything. Even 14 yrs later everything works perfectly. There is little worry that this car Won't start. The stereo still sounds excellent.
The car is very comfortable. The Benz is slightly better because of the long wheelbase. I honestly can't tell any difference between the two stereos.
Styling is a real subjective thing. They both look great. Both interiors show a lot of thought. The Benz does have nice mouldings that protect the body from shopping carts. It's something I wish Lexus would do.
Under the hood, I've noted that the Mercedes was built to be worked on. Changing tailight bulbs is a simple chore. It's a 30 minute one on the Lexus. The S430 uses synthetic oil, and you can check the oil without leaving the car. Mercedes also provides hard points to tow the car with. They've definitely thought of the mechanic on this car.
The Lexus isn't as mechanic friendly, but you also know it doesn't require much to begin with. The 1992 has only recently required substantial expenditure. How much of it was "necessary" is a judgement call. We're pretty finicky so that's a big part of it.
In conclusion, it's Really hard for me to pick a winner. It is clear to me that Lexus and Mercedes have Different Core Competencies. If it's about convenience, reliability, and comfort it's on a Lexus. If it's about Safety, Perfomance, and Style it's on a Mercedes.
If I've learned anything from having both a Mercedes and Lexus it's this:
Both are great cars period. There is no "One" top car.
We're all privileged to own cars like these. Let's enjoy them and stop bickering over which one is best!!!
#14678 of 24726 Re: Audi A8 - my take [merc1]
Apr 11, 2006 (6:02 am)
The answer to that is that the War was much harder on Auto Union than it was on Benz. In 1938, AU had 25% of the German car market, and their "Dampf Kraft Wagen" motorcycle brand had a third of the motorcycle market. Then Germany lost the war, and the Soviets eliminated their production facilities. Most of the top AU guys moved to Ingolstadt, and they basically made DKW motorcycles until they were bought out by Daimler-Benz, and then later sold to VW because they werent profitable.
Audi's first real car since pre-war Germany was the 1980 Quattro. Thats why they dont have the kind of heritage that Mercedes does.
#14679 of 24726 Re: Of vienershnitzel and lederhosen [designman]
Apr 11, 2006 (8:59 am)
The drawback is that you could end up devaluing Porsche.
Also, how do you distinguish Audi from VW?
Their products are too close as it is.
#14680 of 24726 Re: Ok, Merc. Uncle! [drfill]
Apr 11, 2006 (10:31 am)
Ok, deal. Sorry I just couldn't let that comparo go, any other models I can see, but not those.
I doubt if you'll let me "enjoy" NYIAS for long after that LS600h is shown...lol!!!
#14681 of 24726 Re: Audi A8 - my take [lexusguy]
Apr 11, 2006 (10:35 am)
Yeah I forgot about who got what at the end of the war. I know you weren't around to see all of that, but thanks for setting me straight...lol.