Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#14663 of 24726 Of vienershnitzel and lederhosen
Apr 10, 2006 (5:49 pm)
Audi and VW need to capitalize on two things now, their German-ness and the new bond with Porsche.
VW was the “people’s car” and it can become the “people’s Porsche” or the “entry-level Porsche.” It already has a young cult following in the US that has this sort of perception. It should be watered and nurtured. This latest round of Jettas and Passats went in the wrong direction—they went soft on ride to compete with the Japanese—big mistake. Redesign them ASAP. German cars are nothing without performance. BMW made its bones in the US with the athletic 2002 just as it was perilously close to going under. I believe VW can and should do the same with a blockbuster car that sits one price level below the mighty 3-series, a pure driver’s car.
Audi already has good engineering and should somehow be positioned as “Porsche sedans” especially now that Porsche has partnered with VW on hybrid. Panamera will have a limited exotic market but the sky is the limit with production sedans.
Needless to say, Mercedes and BMW are powerhouse German brands. Take the other potent brand—Porsche—endow Audi and VW with this persona and you’ve really got something. Canvas the world for the marketers who can pull this off, have patience, commitment and watch it flower.
Porsche has to venture outside of its niche and want it to happen. They’re not exactly marketing geniuses either. I think much of their current success is a matter of riding the rising tide. But if they can put their badge on an elephant with shaky reliability and sell it in a market that was very saturated, think of what they can do with entry-level cars and sedans. Maybe they’ll never put their badge on VWs and Audis, but if buyers can make that connection, I think the marketing can be very successful in the US.
Audi is like Fruit of the Loom underwear. Yeah, it works. But just put the Polo badge on it sweep the money up.
Apr 10, 2006 (6:38 pm)
Hpowders, when you said TW I was thinking Tom Watson whose putter went seriously south after storming the majors some 25-30 years ago. Never seen Tiger do that sort of thing… yet. I expect when all is said and done, there will never be another like him, at least not in our lifetime. Can’t help but wonder what will become of Michelle Wie… 15 years old, never won a pro tournament and is pulling in some 10-15 mil a year on endorsements and appearances already.
#14665 of 24726 Re: Woops! [designman]
Apr 10, 2006 (7:13 pm)
No. I meant Tiger Woods.
It was also nice to see Ben Crenshaw doing well for a while.
Really painful to see Rocco Mediate implode with that 10!
The sky's the limit for Michelle Wie. I hear she is just now learning to drive.
Wonder what her first car is going to be? Somehow, I don't think it will be a Camry!
I know Natalie Gulbis got a $90k Dodge Viper convertible and her father was tearing his hair out trying to teach her how to drive it with a stick!
#14666 of 24726 Re: Excitement Over The Upcoming Lexus ES350? [psychdoc]
Apr 10, 2006 (7:26 pm)
I agree that Lexus messed up the execution of the GS. (Certainly wouldnt be the first time). Acura also dropped the ball with the RL, while Infiniti knocked it out of the park.
The ES continues to be a great value, and it makes the Zephyr and Lucerne look like dinosaurs, but its not a car for people who like to drive.
#14667 of 24726 That's a real man right thur!
Apr 10, 2006 (7:32 pm)
Hell of an investment! And he's hardcore! Trying to teach a girl, how to drive stick, in a 500HP convertible!
I disagree with his methods, but love his passion! Keep it up!
Who knew a golf tournament was what this forum needed?
After reading a Car mag article on the Evo X, plus seeing some stunning, running, concept car pics, I think I'm in love! That thing will be a true killer!
If it wasn't saddled with the Mitsu name, it could sell for $50k, and be more than worthy of running down M3s and S4s, rain or shine! With a major warranty, and a mid $30s price, a hell of a bargain!
#14668 of 24726 Re: That's a real man right thur! [drfill]
Apr 10, 2006 (7:36 pm)
Sorry! I digressed a little.
#14669 of 24726 Re: Excitement Over The Upcoming Lexus ES350? [lexusguy]
Apr 10, 2006 (7:37 pm)
ISF calibration turned out okay.
Apr 10, 2006 (7:39 pm)
I don't think Lincoln needs any help munning their marque into the ground.
#14671 of 24726 Re: HP [drfill]
Apr 10, 2006 (8:28 pm)
Lincoln seems to have figured out the source of their woes. It's all of those historic nameplates! Who wants to drive a "Contintental"? Wouldnt you rather have a "MKS" or "MKX"?
#14672 of 24726 Re: Merc, I already won this argument! [drfill]
Apr 10, 2006 (8:42 pm)
Re: the SC vs. the SL, part of the reason for the HUGE success of the SC is the SL-matching V8 within the Sc430 engine bay. Whether the Lexus built the SC to compete with the SL primarily, at $25k less is debatable. But the SL, for 3 years, would struggle to outrun the Lexus. I'm sure this was used in "walkarounds" often.
Won? Won what? The bottom line is that the SL is the better car and has been since day one. For all the speed matching potential you claim the SC430 has it can't use it any way other than in a straight line since it has little to no handling compared to the SL. Again time to update the rant, the SL550 will easily dispense with any SC430s that dare act like they have any "sport" in their DNA. Doc, the SL is a better car than the SC430, period. The SC430 scores last and the SL wins any and everytime they've faced each other. GAME OVER. THE END.
Re: the original SC, having been knocked-off several times (Mazda MX-6 and Buick Riviera the most blatant), and being called, at $45k, "Possibly the best car on the planet!" by C&D, the 1992-99 SC resume wants for nothing. It had to be re-engineered to bring the latest safety equipment cars started to bear in '95+, and Lexus had other plans.
Not a one of thoese cars even looks anything like the Lexus SC, especially the Buick. Buick's copy target was Jaguar during those days not Lexus. The last part about the SC having to be re-engineered is a nice, grand even, excuse. Toyota has more money than anyone else and can "engineer" a car to meet whatever standards they want. Period.
As Mercedes CLK has ALWAYS shown, matching style with the original SC was futile, so just slap two doors on an E, and call it a day!
First off the CLK isn't based on the E-Class and how do you know that Mercedes was trying to match the SC400? The fact remains that the original CLK from 1998-2002 saw the SC400 off the market, as to which looks better we will agree to disagree there. Not knocking the original SC400 either, I liked the car myself, but it wasn't heaven sent like you portray it to be.
Considering Mercedes had several years to build an SC competitor, the 1999 CLK430 was another weak effort, hoplessly derivitive of the E-Class sedan, as was it's forebearer.
Fact check, the 1999 CLK430 was NOT derived from the E-Class. It was derived from the C-Class platform, unlike the previous 300CE/E320 Coupe which was derived from the E-Class.
Since you brought up the CL (Comparing it to cars costing half as much smacks of desperation, Merc. You know better!), if Lexus built cars that cost as much as S550, SL550, or CL55, you wouldn't be so apt to hide in an Ivory tower.
I'm not comparing the two cars as a whole, only their styling which the CL blows away any Lexus, still to this day. Talk about desperation at least I can point to a current Mercedes that has some looks and not live in the past about a car long since out of production, that my friend is desperation in trying to cover for the current SC430's lame duck styling and driving experience. The SC400 does nothing for the SC430.
Mercedes better have an anwser for the 600h! That could be 10-12k sales a year, by itself.
No doubt the car will be a hit, but why is that Mercedes is the only one that has to "come up with something"? Mercedes won't have a direct answer for the LS600h, as will no other manufacturer. You know how Lexus doesn't have an answer for a boatload of Mercedes and BMW models.