Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#14572 of 24723 Re: Merc [blkhemi]
Apr 07, 2006 (4:05 pm)
Like it or not, sales volume is the final arbiter in the winner or loser category.
How well a car does in its category determines alot about its fate. Slow selling cars are withdrawn or overhauled, good sellers are lauded by the motor co. and beloved by dealers.
The A8 is a fine car, but it clearly can't match the salea of the BMW or Benz or Lexus.
Consider the A8's twin, the VW Phaeton. A car with "loser" clearly stamped on its hood. As a car it may be a fine one, but it hasn't clicked with its intended market demographic.
Resale is also different for the winners and loser in the auto market. A8's have been wonderful bargains on the used market because of their also ran status.
According to Manheim, a 2002 Audi S8 w/ 50k will fetch $25,000 at auction.
A 2002 BMW 745i w/ 50k will fetch $35,000, ditto for the S500. The S8 started at $72000 that year, the bimmer $68,000.
If you are buying used, the S8 is the way to go, but if you bought one new, your taking a 10k bath compared to a bimmer owner.
#14573 of 24723 Re: Tag [tagman]
Apr 07, 2006 (4:15 pm)
The SC430 certainly isnt the first time Lexus made design and execution mistakes with a product (that would be the '93 GS300) and I'm sure it wont be the last. Its hardly perfect, but at least this time Lexus has the sense to not let it sit on the market for 9 years.
#14574 of 24723 Re: Tag [lexusguy]
Apr 07, 2006 (4:33 pm)
The SC430 certainly isnt the first time Lexus made design and execution mistakes with a product . . . but at least this time Lexus has the sense to not let it sit on the market for 9 years.
Good point, Lexusguy. And, of course, Toyota/Lexus has a treasure chest of resources to do something about it expeditiously.
I give them credit (and respect, in case the Doc is reading ) for acting quickly.
#14575 of 24723 Re: Lexus Experience [houdini1]
Apr 07, 2006 (5:16 pm)
Thank you - houdini1.
Benzster - I see the service department 6 times in 3 years and that is why I am going to buy a car??? You've got to be kidding with that comment - it's as far out in left field as it gets.
#14576 of 24723 Back to HELM
Apr 07, 2006 (6:30 pm)
Its been a well-rested 3 months away from HELM. I see I haven't been missed.... maybe Designman or Merc1, eh ? I must confess I did miss many of you, so I hope to re-acquaint myself back to the board... all in due time... First, gotta catch up on many of these posts.. Lots to read.
#14577 of 24723 BlkHemi, Two Tings!
Apr 07, 2006 (6:32 pm)
1. I didn't call the A8 a loser, but I said "I can see how someone would call it a Loser"
There is a difference. The LS might be better than all the premium sedans you can name, but the A8, to me, is the MOST desirable!
2. My point is getting twisted quickly, and often.
As I've said several times before, there is more than one way to be a "winner" in the marketplace. YOu can outshine others dynamically, in comparisons, change the marketplace, or just outsell the competition.
By comparing the SC to cars that are "Losing" in the market or segments, I am disproving the SC as a "Loser".
I don't believe in degrees of "Loser". The A8 doesn't sell, and doesn't win comparisons. And it hasn't affected it's segment, except to bring in the Pheaton, which was a true "Loser".
AS MUCH AS I LIKE THE A8, I'd have to slap a "Loser" tag on it. That kinda goes for the Audi line, in general. It really isn't the A8's fault. The company hasn't made any headway over the last 10-15 years.
Lexus has conquered countries in 10 years, what has Audi done again?
The SC has EXCEEDED sales expectation for 4 years in a row. Does Lexus, or it's many owners, see it as a loser?
Resale values? How they doin'? Ok.
For Lexus, I'd call the ES250 (1990-1992), the GS300 (1993-1997), and the IS300 (2001-2005), "Losers".
That's all. Considering many companies are currently dragging 2 or 3 around, per year, that's pretty impressive, for 15+ years!
There's a difference between cars you may not like, and "losers".
Apr 07, 2006 (7:24 pm)
Gee, my first thought was that these are HELMs that a value investor like Warren Buffet might love. Here you have the chance to buy something at more than 50% off list. Then I realized that even a Warren Buffet couldn't afford to run these star-crossed, four year old maintenance headaches. Even BMW concedes that they can't debug the '02 7 Series, the '02 S Class doesn't inspire any confidence and an out of warranty S8 Audi sounds like a combination migrane/nightmare.
#14579 of 24723 Re: Back to HELM [oac]
Apr 07, 2006 (7:35 pm)
Yes you have Hi Tony
#14580 of 24723 Re: BlkHemi, Two Tings! [drfill]
Apr 07, 2006 (8:07 pm)
For some of us the name Audi has been meaningless until a dealership is near by...For me that wasn`t until a year or so ago...After owning Lexus from the beginning of time, I loked at BMW and Audi this time ...Almost got the BMW, but due to a screw up at the last minute, took a hance and ordered an Aud a8...It has been a superb car for me...As far as I am concerned there are only two other people on the planet that own a8---blkhemi and emass....We have all been very pleased so far, so for me I beg to pardon but I disagree with your opinion of the word `loser`..as it applies to the a 8...Sometimes to enjoy life you have to break away from the majority thinking and go it alone---let resales fall where thy may in a few years, but enjoy the `decision now and also to be able to say I made a mistake if you happen to have made a mistake....So the three of us a-8 owners right now are enjoying the car...no mistake and no looser . I really think that Lexus has challenged the Germans and the Germans have responded as Merc has ever so patiently ,over the years, brought to my attention....Tony
#14581 of 24723 Don't Miss Forget,
Apr 07, 2006 (8:21 pm)
Howard Stern owns an A8 too. He's got the love.