Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#14568 of 24726 Re: Merc [designman]
Apr 07, 2006 (8:53 am)
"By the way, for someone who has a taste for the likes of Jags and Maseratis, I donít get your fondness for the SC400. In my opinion it is as plain and uninspiring as it gets... as interesting as a bar of ivory soap. I certainly think the SC430 has more styling booty and panache.:
Woah, I never said that I think the SC400 is the best looking car ever, or that its one of my favorite cars. When I was talking about the SC400's styling, I meant in context to a 1992 car design. When the SC hit back then, it looked great, certainly much better than the Lincoln Mark VIII, the BMW 8 series (still had pop up headlights!) and the Benz S-class coupe\CL class. The critics at the time also praised the car's styling, and it earned a 10-best award.
The SC430 certainly has more booty, I will give you that. But it was an ugly car in 2001, and its still ugly.
#14569 of 24726 Re: Merc [drfill]
Apr 07, 2006 (2:17 pm)
Let's see if I got this right. Because the A8 doesn't have the mind-boggling sales of the LS or S, that makes it a loser? I'm not quite following that assumptions as the A8 has the beans to play in this arena, not something the current bloated LS can say, what with it's Buick Park Ave-esque styling.
I'm the proud owner of '06 A8 W-12 and am very impressed with the car. Top quality and craftsmanship SHOULD be the focus of the perspective buyer, not because it sales so well I guess I'll buy one too.
I've owned all of the big-league rides, most recently a S65 AMG and BMW 760il. Both were great cars, respectively. And yes, they do outsell the Audi, by quite a wide margin. But it's the build quality and customer service of the Audi that did it for me. Maybe it's the small dealer network that affords such great customer service. But it does work. Not something that I can say for my recent experiences with Mercedes and Lexus.
Lexus,M-B,BMW,Jag, even Caddy outsell Audi. Yet somehow this makes the car look bad. Not necessarily true. The A8 is more that deserving of a place in the big-leagues, sales or not.
#14570 of 24726 Re: Tag [drfill]
Apr 07, 2006 (2:41 pm)
Those darn servers reminded me of the old movie line from Cool Hand Luke, starring Paul Newman . . . (spoken with a southern slang) "What we have here is a failure to communicate!"
Anyway, Doc, I wanted to get back to you on that SC stuff we were ping ponging with.
Here's what you said, Doc:
Calling the SC a "Loser" kind of contradicts this "respect" for Lexus, of which you speak.
Not at all. Címon now, Doc. I absolutely do respect Lexus, but NOBODY bats 1000.
As far as the Mercedes R goes, I am already on record on that one. But once again comparing the SC to other vehicles with issues, or to losers, whether the R, XLR, or anything else, does not somehow change or elevate the status of the SC.
Let me put it this way . . . Placing the SC in the gloomy shadow of other losers is not the best way to view the SC, IMO.
Is the SC well crafted? Yes, of course, but thatís simply not enough. Like I said, Lexus is aware of this and the replacement will be proof of a better direction.
If I truly believed I have unfairly slammed the SC, I would be apologizing right now . . . but what I do believe is that history will prove that a future replacement Lexus sports coupe will more likely be a real ďwinnerĒ, and it surely wonít be the current SC.
#14572 of 24726 Re: Merc [blkhemi]
Apr 07, 2006 (3:05 pm)
Like it or not, sales volume is the final arbiter in the winner or loser category.
How well a car does in its category determines alot about its fate. Slow selling cars are withdrawn or overhauled, good sellers are lauded by the motor co. and beloved by dealers.
The A8 is a fine car, but it clearly can't match the salea of the BMW or Benz or Lexus.
Consider the A8's twin, the VW Phaeton. A car with "loser" clearly stamped on its hood. As a car it may be a fine one, but it hasn't clicked with its intended market demographic.
Resale is also different for the winners and loser in the auto market. A8's have been wonderful bargains on the used market because of their also ran status.
According to Manheim, a 2002 Audi S8 w/ 50k will fetch $25,000 at auction.
A 2002 BMW 745i w/ 50k will fetch $35,000, ditto for the S500. The S8 started at $72000 that year, the bimmer $68,000.
If you are buying used, the S8 is the way to go, but if you bought one new, your taking a 10k bath compared to a bimmer owner.
#14573 of 24726 Re: Tag [tagman]
Apr 07, 2006 (3:15 pm)
The SC430 certainly isnt the first time Lexus made design and execution mistakes with a product (that would be the '93 GS300) and I'm sure it wont be the last. Its hardly perfect, but at least this time Lexus has the sense to not let it sit on the market for 9 years.
#14574 of 24726 Re: Tag [lexusguy]
Apr 07, 2006 (3:33 pm)
The SC430 certainly isnt the first time Lexus made design and execution mistakes with a product . . . but at least this time Lexus has the sense to not let it sit on the market for 9 years.
Good point, Lexusguy. And, of course, Toyota/Lexus has a treasure chest of resources to do something about it expeditiously.
I give them credit (and respect, in case the Doc is reading ) for acting quickly.
#14575 of 24726 Re: Lexus Experience [houdini1]
Apr 07, 2006 (4:16 pm)
Thank you - houdini1.
Benzster - I see the service department 6 times in 3 years and that is why I am going to buy a car??? You've got to be kidding with that comment - it's as far out in left field as it gets.
#14576 of 24726 Back to HELM
Apr 07, 2006 (5:30 pm)
Its been a well-rested 3 months away from HELM. I see I haven't been missed.... maybe Designman or Merc1, eh ? I must confess I did miss many of you, so I hope to re-acquaint myself back to the board... all in due time... First, gotta catch up on many of these posts.. Lots to read.
#14577 of 24726 BlkHemi, Two Tings!
Apr 07, 2006 (5:32 pm)
1. I didn't call the A8 a loser, but I said "I can see how someone would call it a Loser"
There is a difference. The LS might be better than all the premium sedans you can name, but the A8, to me, is the MOST desirable!
2. My point is getting twisted quickly, and often.
As I've said several times before, there is more than one way to be a "winner" in the marketplace. YOu can outshine others dynamically, in comparisons, change the marketplace, or just outsell the competition.
By comparing the SC to cars that are "Losing" in the market or segments, I am disproving the SC as a "Loser".
I don't believe in degrees of "Loser". The A8 doesn't sell, and doesn't win comparisons. And it hasn't affected it's segment, except to bring in the Pheaton, which was a true "Loser".
AS MUCH AS I LIKE THE A8, I'd have to slap a "Loser" tag on it. That kinda goes for the Audi line, in general. It really isn't the A8's fault. The company hasn't made any headway over the last 10-15 years.
Lexus has conquered countries in 10 years, what has Audi done again?
The SC has EXCEEDED sales expectation for 4 years in a row. Does Lexus, or it's many owners, see it as a loser?
Resale values? How they doin'? Ok.
For Lexus, I'd call the ES250 (1990-1992), the GS300 (1993-1997), and the IS300 (2001-2005), "Losers".
That's all. Considering many companies are currently dragging 2 or 3 around, per year, that's pretty impressive, for 15+ years!
There's a difference between cars you may not like, and "losers".