Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
Apr 07, 2006 (5:22 am)
Give you an inch, and you damn sure will take a mile, eh?
The SC doesn't offer the pop-up rollbar, or the performance-oriented acrynyms the Benz does, but it's interior is more luxurious (you have a tristed way of admitting this), and offered the same speed and power for 3 years. A quarter-mile charge was pretty much a dead heat!
Very little effort was expended on the SL's interior. So you call the SC guady and tasteless. I call the SL a generally weak effort, not befitting it's $100k-encroaching price tag.
You seem awfly impressed with the queer styling of the CLK, which has gone from clear E-class derivitive to....queer. How about something appraching the impcat the original SC had? Will we see that from Mercedes? Or will we get an R350 instead?
The SC sold 17k units in 2003. Name me a premium convertible that sold that many?
Are you saying if Lexus sells 17k SC430s it's first year, and Cadillac sells 3-4k, the Caddy is not a loser?
You may fall for GMs PR spins, but not me. No way.
Now if they are willing to admit that Lexus is 500% better than Cadillac, then that garbage has some credibility.
I dig the A8, but it won't sell, and I can see how someone would call it a "Loser". It barely outsells the XLR!
#14565 of 24726 Re: Merc [drfill]
Apr 07, 2006 (6:19 am)
The SC sold 17k units in 2003. Name me a premium convertible that sold that many?
I'm not sure where you got your 17k figure.... According to autochannel.com, Lexus sold 10,298 SC430s in 2003. Then they sold 9,708 in 2004 and 8,360 in 2005. Looks like a downward trend.
#14566 of 24726 Re: Lexus Experience [blckislandguy]
Apr 07, 2006 (7:20 am)
I certainly wish this was not the case. I would say the prestige was built on history, but the younger segments are not in touch with it. They don't know why they think the way they do. That only gets them in the door. With so much info available, it is hard to get to what MB thinks matters. I would ask a customer what was important or what they liked about their current vehicle and relate the info accordingly. If I had talked about seat squibs to an uninterested party, they would have left and bought the cupholders every time.
what draws most of those very serious, often self centered, people into a MB dealership to buy a car is not MBs impressive record of innovation. Rather it is simply prestige, ego, a desire for recognition of life long achievement, etc.
Hmmmm... well yes. I would agree sorta. If you mean a lottery winner. JK It takes a certain type of personality to be successful to the extent that an SL purchase is obtainable certainly. "Rewarding ones self".... I think I can dig that up in copy with MBUSA on the tag line.
That is why librarians and teachers buy Subaru and CEO's and NBA players buy MB's.
Apr 07, 2006 (8:25 am)
I meant, 2002, the first year it was produced. Sorry.
Lexus sells over 300k units a year from less than 200 stores, nationwide. And they sold 40k LS in 1992 for over $45k, which with inflation, puts it's price near Audi's A8 today. Numbers of dealers is no excuse.
If it's "All That", people will go get the car. People wait 3 months for a Mini Cooper. Or Prius. If it's great, people will pay over sticker, drive 200 miles, wait 3-4 months to order one, etc.
#14568 of 24726 Re: Merc [designman]
Apr 07, 2006 (8:53 am)
"By the way, for someone who has a taste for the likes of Jags and Maseratis, I donít get your fondness for the SC400. In my opinion it is as plain and uninspiring as it gets... as interesting as a bar of ivory soap. I certainly think the SC430 has more styling booty and panache.:
Woah, I never said that I think the SC400 is the best looking car ever, or that its one of my favorite cars. When I was talking about the SC400's styling, I meant in context to a 1992 car design. When the SC hit back then, it looked great, certainly much better than the Lincoln Mark VIII, the BMW 8 series (still had pop up headlights!) and the Benz S-class coupe\CL class. The critics at the time also praised the car's styling, and it earned a 10-best award.
The SC430 certainly has more booty, I will give you that. But it was an ugly car in 2001, and its still ugly.
#14569 of 24726 Re: Merc [drfill]
Apr 07, 2006 (2:17 pm)
Let's see if I got this right. Because the A8 doesn't have the mind-boggling sales of the LS or S, that makes it a loser? I'm not quite following that assumptions as the A8 has the beans to play in this arena, not something the current bloated LS can say, what with it's Buick Park Ave-esque styling.
I'm the proud owner of '06 A8 W-12 and am very impressed with the car. Top quality and craftsmanship SHOULD be the focus of the perspective buyer, not because it sales so well I guess I'll buy one too.
I've owned all of the big-league rides, most recently a S65 AMG and BMW 760il. Both were great cars, respectively. And yes, they do outsell the Audi, by quite a wide margin. But it's the build quality and customer service of the Audi that did it for me. Maybe it's the small dealer network that affords such great customer service. But it does work. Not something that I can say for my recent experiences with Mercedes and Lexus.
Lexus,M-B,BMW,Jag, even Caddy outsell Audi. Yet somehow this makes the car look bad. Not necessarily true. The A8 is more that deserving of a place in the big-leagues, sales or not.
#14570 of 24726 Re: Tag [drfill]
Apr 07, 2006 (2:41 pm)
Those darn servers reminded me of the old movie line from Cool Hand Luke, starring Paul Newman . . . (spoken with a southern slang) "What we have here is a failure to communicate!"
Anyway, Doc, I wanted to get back to you on that SC stuff we were ping ponging with.
Here's what you said, Doc:
Calling the SC a "Loser" kind of contradicts this "respect" for Lexus, of which you speak.
Not at all. Címon now, Doc. I absolutely do respect Lexus, but NOBODY bats 1000.
As far as the Mercedes R goes, I am already on record on that one. But once again comparing the SC to other vehicles with issues, or to losers, whether the R, XLR, or anything else, does not somehow change or elevate the status of the SC.
Let me put it this way . . . Placing the SC in the gloomy shadow of other losers is not the best way to view the SC, IMO.
Is the SC well crafted? Yes, of course, but thatís simply not enough. Like I said, Lexus is aware of this and the replacement will be proof of a better direction.
If I truly believed I have unfairly slammed the SC, I would be apologizing right now . . . but what I do believe is that history will prove that a future replacement Lexus sports coupe will more likely be a real ďwinnerĒ, and it surely wonít be the current SC.
#14572 of 24726 Re: Merc [blkhemi]
Apr 07, 2006 (3:05 pm)
Like it or not, sales volume is the final arbiter in the winner or loser category.
How well a car does in its category determines alot about its fate. Slow selling cars are withdrawn or overhauled, good sellers are lauded by the motor co. and beloved by dealers.
The A8 is a fine car, but it clearly can't match the salea of the BMW or Benz or Lexus.
Consider the A8's twin, the VW Phaeton. A car with "loser" clearly stamped on its hood. As a car it may be a fine one, but it hasn't clicked with its intended market demographic.
Resale is also different for the winners and loser in the auto market. A8's have been wonderful bargains on the used market because of their also ran status.
According to Manheim, a 2002 Audi S8 w/ 50k will fetch $25,000 at auction.
A 2002 BMW 745i w/ 50k will fetch $35,000, ditto for the S500. The S8 started at $72000 that year, the bimmer $68,000.
If you are buying used, the S8 is the way to go, but if you bought one new, your taking a 10k bath compared to a bimmer owner.
#14573 of 24726 Re: Tag [tagman]
Apr 07, 2006 (3:15 pm)
The SC430 certainly isnt the first time Lexus made design and execution mistakes with a product (that would be the '93 GS300) and I'm sure it wont be the last. Its hardly perfect, but at least this time Lexus has the sense to not let it sit on the market for 9 years.