Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#14241 of 24726 Re: sv7887 [lexusguy]
Mar 15, 2006 (6:05 am)
I've spoken to many Lexus mechanics who feel the same exact way I do about these cars. Look at the window switches for example, and even the cluster dimmer switch.
On the original LS400 the plastic was much thicker in these places. The Steering Column had a switch to turn off the auto retract as well. The side mirrors on the 92 LS are much thicker than the ones on the later cars. The wiper and turning signal stalks had a much better feel on them in the original car. It just feels cheap on the new LS cars. Everything on my 1992 LS has this "Built to last forever feel" I'm not saying a new LS will fall apart, but isn't built to that standard.
The design of the original LS still looks good today. Mercedes derivative or not, it still has a classic look to it. The interior cluster has a far more sleeker design to it than my new LS430's. While functional, the new LS430's dashboard design is clunky. The old LS400 has a much sleeker design to it.
Lexus used to build some timeless classics, such as the original LS, SC400, and even ES300. I don't see that anymore. My LS430 already has this "old" look to it, whereas carmakers such as Audi have cars that will always look good. People still think my '92 LS400 is a new car. They think I'm lying when I tell them it's 14 yrs old.
My 1992 LS sits right next to my 2005 LS430, so it's easy for me to make the comparisons. Most of the posters here trade every few years. I like to keep my cars beyond 5+ yrs.
I firmly believe that the 2005 will not hold up as well as the 1992 has. In my '02 I had to replace the rain sensor three times, and replace the steering column all under warranty. The 1998 CPO used to stall and the cluster would blink intermittently.
I agree with all your comments about the extended warranty. I'll definitely get one should I choose to keep it beyond the 4 yr 50K warranty. I think this is true for any HELM.
Do I think the S Class will be as reliable as my Lexus? No. As long as it isn't a lemon, I think the experience will be worth it.
What really put me off about Lexus is their customer service. My experience with their Service Dept has been horrendous. Never in my life, have I had to micromanage the Service of my car, especially when I'm paying $100/hr!
My Mercedes Dealer is Chambers Motorcars of Somerville, MA. They have done a fantastic job so far. I can't comment on their Service Department, but I will in time.
#14243 of 24726 Re: sv7887 [lexusguy]
Mar 15, 2006 (8:55 am)
I agree with you. My point is the quality of the switches themselves. The next time you see an original LS400 (90-94) get inside and feel how the turn signal and wiper stalks feel. Then look at the window switches and especially the dimmer for the dash.
You are correct to say Lexus has put higher quality materials in their cars. There is a ton more wood in my LS430 than any of my LS400's. I was talking more along the line of switches and console design. Look at the dash and control panel of a LS400 (90-92) and compare it to the LS430.
Now imagine a 1990 LS400 with all that wood added to it. Now that I think of it, the LS460 is the best representation of this.
My comment about Lexus relability comes from Lexus mechanics from various dealers. They repeatedly refer to the original cars as those from the golden age. When I talk about long term quality I'm taking about 10 yrs not the 3 JDP uses.
Lexus doesn't have to care what I think, as I'm in the minority of owners who keeps their cars this long. I've seen other Lexus owners on this same board worry about how the LS430 will hold up long term. There is no doubt in my mind that it will not perform as well as the LS400 of mine did. Simply put ALL of these HELM's are putting pointless technology in these cars.
The MB S550 was a classic example of this. They took a step backward in design. Technologically the car is a marvel, but why invest so much in electronics that have been the cause of your reliability problems? The S430 I just bought is complex as it is. I still don't know what half of those buttons do.
The interior of the new S was clunky compared to the old one. The Interior really did not do it for me..It reminds me of the differences from the 2000 LS to 2001 LS430. Lexus had a nice sleek looking car, yet made it look too bulky inside and out. With the LS460 they've moved back to a good design, but something is still missing.
The new LS460's interior is wonderful, but why isn't AWD a standard no cost option like on Mercedes? The design is not bad, but nothing special either. (I think the same of most cars these days). They're making a big jump by introducing a lot of technology, but they lost something in the exterior design from concept to actual product.
My main reason for the switch is the poor customer service I got from both Corporate and the Dealers. They have this attitude that they didn't have back in 1992. I'm sure Mercedes will be no different, but Lexus needs to realize this is a problem.
It is foolish to think Mercedes will NOT clean up it's act. What is going to happen when Mercedes gets it's quality issues sorted? With designs like the CLS 500 and SL 500 they will pose a serious threat to Lexus. In the USA Lexus is dominant for obvious reasons, but that isn't the case worldwide.
I've owned 4 Lexus cars, all LS400/430's. Lexus lost me as a customer for a variety of reasons, some of which I've highlighted. Many of the posters here are sticking to Lexus purely for Reliabilty and Customer Service. If the Euros can improve their reliability even somewhat, people like me are going to take the risk and get it anyway.
#14244 of 24726 Re: sv7887 [sv7887]
Mar 15, 2006 (9:10 am)
"It is foolish to think Mercedes will NOT clean up it's act. What is going to happen when Mercedes gets it's quality issues sorted? With designs like the CLS 500 and SL 500 they will pose a serious threat to Lexus. In the USA Lexus is dominant for obvious reasons, but that isn't the case worldwide."
SV - those are low volume cars that will hardly make a difference and the CLS is cannibalizing other MB sales anyway. Lexus is reaching much higher grounds in the next few yeasr and is a far greater threat to MB than vice-versa. MB has a boatlaod of things to fix that go well beyond reliability.
Mar 15, 2006 (9:21 am)
Sorry about that last post. I tried to edit it, but the Video banner is blocking the Edit button.
Here is a link to a picture of the current ES
I agree Mercedes has many issues, but I'm worried Lexus is starting to develop the arrogant attitude that got MB into trouble in the first place. My experiences with Lexus Corporate and Dealer Management seem to indicate this. I understand I may be the exception to the Rule, but I'm sure I'm not alone here.
I still feel the original LS400 personified what a Lexus should be. Every LS car after it has been a big letdown for me. The LS460 was supposed to be 1989 all over again, but I don't see it. It's a nice car filled with all sorts of electronics, but it doesn't have that same flair.
#14247 of 24726 Re: Lexus ES [sv7887]
Mar 15, 2006 (9:48 am)
I deleted it for you.
If that happens again, you can use the Recent Msgs link to display the last 20 messages. That will push the problem message to the bottom of the page so you can to the Edit button.
Come on over to CarSpace.com! You can set up a page (it's a snap) and then you can post pictures as wide as you want.
#14248 of 24726 Attn: New or Interested 2007 Mercedes-Benz S550 Owners
by Karen@Edmunds HOST
Mar 15, 2006 (11:18 am)
A large national newspaper aims to interview someone who has purchased, ordered or plans to order a 2007 Mercedes-Benz S550. Please respond to ctalatiedmunds.com before Thursday, March 16 at 5 PM EST with your daytime contact info.
#14249 of 24726 Re: sv7887 [lexusguy]
Mar 15, 2006 (2:11 pm)
Like Sam, I suppose I'm an exception to the rule that LS's are built "bulletproof". Well in the 32,000 miles of ownership of my '98 LS400(brand spankin' new with 3 miles on the odo_), The electroluminescent gauge cluster, the entire steering rack, and the two front hub assemblies had to be replaced, albeit all under warranty. Which led me to the question, if this happening now, wonder what this car has plan down the line?
All I'm saying is that, yes the Lexus is known for it's Toyota-esque legendary reliability, but it is not without fault, in fact far from it. By comparison, my '01 S500 was a model of refinement and reliability, without any quality problems whatsoever. And once again, this was supposed to be one of the worst years of the W220's platform.
P.S.- altho the Lexus interiors are quite nice, maybe a tad nicer than the M-B's interior(materials wise), it is still far from best in class. That crown has lived in Audi's stable fo quite a while. And this was the major selling point on my recent purchase of a '06 A8 W-12.
#14250 of 24726 Re: sv7887 [ljflx]
Mar 15, 2006 (2:24 pm)
I don't want to beat up the topic either, but, those resale projections ARE based upon actual sales . . . and many YEARS of them.