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High End Luxury Cars

24723 messages,  Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum.

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan



Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Messages Page 1382 of 2473

#13807 of 24723 Re: Merc [merc1] by syswei

Feb 03, 2006 (8:03 am)

Replying to: merc1 (Feb 02, 2006 10:34 pm)
You think the Lexus would have gone for a 100hp leap from the LS430 to the LS460 if the new S550 didn't have 382hp? ...I clearly remember on the 2007 LS board [drfill]saying that they won't go for more than 30-40hp gain with the new LS, and that likely would have been the case until the S550 was shown last Sept with 382hp.
 
Merc1, the car companies are to some extent in an HP war, but I think you go too far in assuming that the hp of the LS460 is a direct reaction to the hp of the S550.
 
Here is a rough chronology, I didn't look for exact dates:
 
(1) model year 2005 Avalon introduced with 3.5 liter 280 hp - 80 hp/liter
 
(2) IS350 introduced with 3.5 liter 306 hp - 87 hp/liter
 
(3) S550 was shown last Sept with 382hp - 69 hp/liter
 
(4) LS460 unveiled with 380 hp - 83 hp/liter
 
Maybe in your world, where every Lexus move is imagined to be a direct reaction (or worse yet, copy) of MB/BMW, you can see a causal relationship between (3) and (4). I don't. I see a general hp war, and a relationship between the technology in the Avalon, IS, and now LS engines. The new Lexus engines do have a dual injection technology, and that in part is how Lexus achieves the combination of high hp and improved mpg. Please explain for us, does dual injection copy MB/BMW?

#13808 of 24723 Re: R-Class [brightness04] by hpowders

Feb 03, 2006 (8:25 am)

Replying to: brightness04 (Feb 03, 2006 1:34 am)
I saw one recent rave about the performance of the R-class.
If one doesn't mind driving a "classless" car-is it a wagon, minivan or SUV-one can buy one for about $1500 under invoice, which is almost $6000 off MSRP.

#13809 of 24723 Re: R-Class [hpowders] by templeton3

Feb 03, 2006 (9:11 am)

Replying to: hpowders (Feb 03, 2006 8:25 am)
I swore I would never buy another Mercedes because of such negative experience,but now it seems like they are teasing everyone with great deals. In Southern California, newpapaper ad for a R class for $395 per month with $5000 drive off for a $54,000 car. I asked my wife if she was interested, she said no, its too ugly. I asked her about the S500, we could get a $15,000 discount. She prefers the BMW 750IL. Maybe if the price gets better, she could be persuaded to drive a Mercedes again.

#13810 of 24723 Re: R-Class [hpowders] by garyh1

Feb 03, 2006 (9:15 am)

Replying to: hpowders (Feb 03, 2006 8:25 am)
Maybe I'm an exception, but if the R had been available back when we bought our E320 wagon years ago (1994), it would have been on our list for sure. We needed a car that could carry a bunch of little kids for carpooling, but my wife didn't want a "MommyMobile" minivan or an oversized SUV. The E wagon's 3rd seat could handle one or two kids when necessary, but it otherwise drove like an excellent handling sedan. I haven't driven the R, but if it drove well and handled the carpooling better than the E wagon, we'd at least be considering it. But then of course, MB would have lost the sale of an E wagon....
 
BTW, my 17 year old daughter is now driving the wagon, which of course is not considered cool (yeah, don't we all feel sorry for her). I imagine an old R would be even less cool as a hand-me-down!

#13811 of 24723 Re: R-Class [ljflx] by merc1

Feb 03, 2006 (9:34 am)

Replying to: ljflx (Feb 03, 2006 7:29 am)
Won't argue with you at all on this one but in my mind the CLS probably cannibalizes other Benz sales a lot more than anything else. Is it a co-incidence that E-class sales go down as the CLS comes out. If not otherwise than who is the CLS stealing sales from? From my perspective if you need both the E and the CLS to stay even or rise slightly with past year sales of the singular E-class model (as was the case in year one) it means your cost of doing business went up.
 
But when you look at E-Class sales they only dipped about 6K units for 2005 compared to 2004 if I remember right. I don't think the CLS was the cause of this. The cause IMO was a new GS, RL, M35/45 and a 5-Series that became hugely popular in its second year just like the E did in its second year - 2004. Other than this what time frame are you talking about in which the E's sales dropped so badly? At the beginning of last year? That may have been because of the CLS then again it could have been just the beginning of this year - Mercedes gets off to a slow start - slower than everyone else it seems. Not sure why.
 
But I will argue on the power front. Lexus is leading big-time with the hybrids. MB's added power on the S was a response to BMW adding power on the 7 and a lot of all of this can be traced back to Lexus rolling out a V8 in 1989. I don't view anyone leading here with more powerful gas engines in the mainstream (volume) car models - this is just an upping the ante game. On the hybrid front Lexus is clearly setting the pace and if I was a German lux mfr. I'd have a fear that they may steal this emerging and future growth segment just like they stole the SUV segment
 
Leading what though? A market segment or overall image? Sure they're leading in hybrids, but hybrids aren't everything by a long shot. Lexus rolling out a V8 in 1989 didn't really catch Mercedes in a bad position considering they already offered a V8, two of them to be exact.
 
I agree that the Germans had better get with the game on hybrids, and they've all had to do an about face on this. This past Frankfurt autoshow proves this, everyone had a hybrid on display. You know its crunch time when GM, Mercedes and BMW all work together on something! These companies really can't stand each other normally. Again, though hybrids are but one aspect of the market and yes Lexus leads there, but that doesn't equal overall supremacy over Mercedes and BMW. Not by a long shot.
 
M

#13812 of 24723 Re: R-Class [lexusguy] by merc1

Feb 03, 2006 (9:39 am)

Replying to: lexusguy (Feb 03, 2006 7:45 am)
Valid points IMO. I don't see the purpose of a GS450h either if the GS460 will outpower it for likely less money. A lot of people think that hybrids are the second coming of the automobile.
 
M

#13813 of 24723 Re: Merc [syswei] by merc1

Feb 03, 2006 (9:50 am)

Replying to: syswei (Feb 03, 2006 8:03 am)
Merc1, the car companies are to some extent in an HP war, but I think you go too far in assuming that the hp of the LS460 is a direct reaction to the hp of the S550.
 
You say hp war I say direct response to the #1 competitor. We'll have to agree to disagree there. Lexus' past actions say that this is a direct response to Mercedes IMO. Between that hp rating and an 8-speed tranny, Lexus most definitely was looking at Mercedes (specifically the S550) when developing the LS460's drivetrain. Though I do see what you're saying with the hp per liter ratings - that the LS460's hp rating just happens to fit in with what they're doing with all their engines at the moment. True, but mightily suspect to me considering Lexus' past actions. Mere coincidence that dual injection technology gets them to the same hp number as their direct competitor? I don't think so.
 
You're just reaching about dual injection being thought of as a copy by me. Never even implied any such thing. The technoloy isn't a copy, but they sure made sure they tuned it right in order to match the S550 and a 8-speed tranny was likely in development since the first 7-speed Benz hit the road in 2003.
 
M
 

#13814 of 24723 Re: R-Class [merc1] by ljflx

Feb 03, 2006 (10:13 am)

Replying to: merc1 (Feb 03, 2006 9:34 am)
"Mercedes gets off to a slow start - slower than everyone else it seems. Not sure why."
 
Sales stats are cars delivered to dealers not necessarily sold to consumers. For example one would think November and December should be big months for Lexus because of the December to remember promotions. Typically I'd expect January to be a slow month for them because of that promotion ending so sales staying high is a real positive sign as it shows an indication of advanced dealer orders for late January and February sales to consumers - even after a major promotional period. In the case of MB - I'm not sure of their promotion periods. If January-February is a dead promotion month I'd expect that January sales would be low. The telling point on this years January sales that should be troubling is "same car sales" the auto equivalent of retails closely watched "same store sales". Take out the R-class sales and business is down in the same comparative period.
 
I don't know what the expectations of the ML were. i thought I read 30-35K annual sales but maybe I'm mistaken. Is the just under 2K units good, average or bad in your mind?

#13815 of 24723 Re: R-Class [ljflx] by merc1

Feb 03, 2006 (10:20 am)

Replying to: ljflx (Feb 03, 2006 10:13 am)
Well Mercedes' promotions end on Jan 3rd every year.
 
I'm sorry Lenn, but all this worry about Jan's sales figures is much fuss over nothing to me. We've had this same implication of some kind of problem every single year for the past 2-3 years around this time, and sales always pick up.
 
Now if the S-Class doesn't sell well in March (which will be its first full month on the market) then there will be cause for suggesting there is a problem.
 
For the M-Class Jan is a bad month, but why is there so much fuss over this? We're talking like all the M will ever do is under 2K when I know that won't be the case, if past sales performance is any indication. Again, too much worrying about one month! I don't remember what the sales projections were for the M-Class, but 30K sounds about right I think.
 
M

#13816 of 24723 Re: R-Class [merc1] by ljflx

Feb 03, 2006 (10:43 am)

Replying to: merc1 (Feb 03, 2006 10:20 am)
I'd be surprised if the S-class doesn't sell well. The longer-term issue is will the LS cut into it given the lead time is only 6 months this go round. Like Tagman I expect both models to do very well. But I'd think that April is probably a better benchmark month for S sales than March as there are usually supply line hiccups in the first month.
 
I will be curious to see if we start seeing S-class sales figures in February as it could be indicative of how fast consumers will buy them in March. If it says zero in the MB charts than I am mistaken and the sales charts are entirely tied to Consumer purchases and not manufacturing shipments to dealers.
 
M-class - I really have no opinion on it at all, just was curious how you read it. A few days ago when I saw the figure my initial reaction was it was lower than I would have expected.

Messages Page 1382 of 2473

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