High End Luxury Cars

24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan

Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Outline

Messages Page 1360 of 2471: 1; ...; 1357; 1358; 1359; 1360; 1361; 1362; 1363; ...; 2471; Prev; Next; Last

#13585 of 24700 Re: Lexus vs Merc [garyh1] by ljflx Jan 21, 2006 (4:47 pm)
Replying to: garyh1 (Jan 21, 2006 4:27 pm) Thank you again Gary. Merc1 has missed points I've made or taken them far out of context for a while now. Witness my comment that celebs will buy up the LS hybrids being viewed as an MB status downturn.
#13586 of 24700 Re: Lexus vs Merc [oac] by grandaddy Jan 21, 2006 (6:07 pm)
Replying to: oac (Jan 21, 2006 3:20 pm) Just expect your LX 470 to get better as it ages. My '00 is still perfect and still a pleasure to drive. I will buy another one in a heartbeat when and if the time and need ever arises. Only cost has been routine maintenance. I really think I could drive this thing for 10 more years and it would still be like new. I don't know if you have noticed this but the paint and finish on the LX 470 is the best I have seen, bar none.
#13588 of 24700 Wow by big3forlife Jan 21, 2006 (7:29 pm)
Never though id see the day when people would say Lexus is as good as Mercedes-Benz or *BMW*
#13589 of 24700 Re: Lexus vs Merc [michael_mattox] by hpowders Jan 22, 2006 (5:58 am)
Replying to: michael_mattox (Jan 21, 2006 2:23 pm) The reliability issue with BMW's is old news. CR has recently upgraded the 5 series to satisfactory reliability. Writing from my own experience, I have had 3 BMW's since 1993 and have only had to have regular oil changes paid for by BMW, and of course, new tires. I don't believe I am the lucky exception to the rule here. BMW had a reliability problem. They listened. They fixed it.
#13590 of 24700 Re: Lexus vs Merc [garyh1] by tagman Jan 22, 2006 (9:33 am)
Replying to: garyh1 (Jan 21, 2006 4:27 pm) Len has been suggesting that Toyota has been moving up the price of the LS towards the S and the 7 for the last few years, and will be doing it again even more forcefully with the new versions of the LS it will be introducing. So if his surmise is correct. . . . . IF,IF,IF,IF,IF . . . his surmise is correct . . . then I must say the "value" equation would be altered! Now, IF, IF, IF, IF, IF the "value" factor changes, then we can further surmise that the Lexus buyer will weigh less on the "value" as it relates to the historic price advantage. That, therefore leaves the "other" factors related to the buying decision. Well, that leaves "reliability" itself. That's pretty much the majority of what you hear from the "Lexus camp" nowadays. To me, that's important, but it's "thin ice", if it becomes the ONLY factor by itself. The other HELM's are generally considered reliable "enough" to be considered by prospective buyers, that's for sure, and the styling and/or handling advantages of the other HELM's need to be considered, of course. The "new" model factor always helps, so we can expect that to assist the sales of the S-Class and the LS for a while. In the long run, I think Lexus can in fact close the price gap, somewhat, due to their historic sales momentum, social acceptability of their cars, and "reliability" statistics . . . but I do not think that those factors are enough for Lexus without a "noticeable" price advantage. If the prices were about the same . . . yes, there would be those that would still buy the Lexus, of course, but, IMO, those numbers would SHRINK, and more buyers would then choose the other HELMs as the preferred choice. Let me conclude, though, by saying that I do NOT actually believe that Lexus will give up their price advantage, and that they KNOW very well what their formula for success is here . . . and you can expect them to continue with their winning and BRILLIANT formula for years to come. Hence, the Lexus price advantage MUST stay. TagMan Replies to this message: ljflx (Jan 22, 2006 9:58 am) ljflx (Jan 22, 2006 10:04 am) tagman (Jan 22, 2006 10:53 am) garyh1 (Jan 22, 2006 11:40 am) ljflx (Jan 22, 2006 11:46 am) and 1 more...
#13591 of 24700 Re: Lexus vs Merc [tagman] by ljflx Jan 22, 2006 (9:58 am)
Replying to: tagman (Jan 22, 2006 9:33 am) The price advantage will continue but it will narrow just like it did in 2001. But in the p&L world Lexus unit profit is rising and MB's is falling. I'd say by the next redevelopment of the cars in 2014 or so there will be minimal or no price differences on the cars at all. It's a natural busines cycle and it gives both brands the chance to accomplish strategies to raise prices (Lexus) and cut costs (MB) and improve weaknesses on quality (MB) and car line development (Lexus). Have seen it many times in my career - this is just a different product line. On the business side there is another important thing to consider here. Many of the same people own these prestigious brands as dealerships. But the Lexus dealerships are far more profitable than the MB dealerships. There are a number of reasons for this including the much better price elasticity Lexus gives their dealers on MSRP to dealer cost. We all should know well the power of the retailer in the distribution chain of any business segment and cars are no exception. I would expect the MB dealer network to bring a lot of pressure on MB for changes in the years to come and they will use Lexus as a big wedge.
#13592 of 24700 Re: Lexus vs Merc [tagman] by ljflx Jan 22, 2006 (10:04 am)
Replying to: tagman (Jan 22, 2006 9:33 am) Tagman - The $71K LS ultra was a more expensive lease than a 75K S430 in 2001 and it was only $100-150 less a month than the S500. I priced all of these across the board in 2001 and looked close again in 2004. That battle on value was already fought and is over. As far as I am concerned the new battle is just escalating up now to an 80-85K car and a 100-110K car in this 2007 go round. I don't see the big if's that you do. Replies to this message: tagman (Jan 22, 2006 10:53 am) garyh1 (Jan 22, 2006 11:40 am) ljflx (Jan 22, 2006 11:46 am) tagman (Jan 22, 2006 1:34 pm)
#13593 of 24700 07 S by rjlaero Jan 22, 2006 (10:44 am)
I just saw the new 2007 S class in person and was quite disappointed. The body shape doesn't look any better up close than it does in person. And I'm not a big fan of these "ATM" dashboards that seem to be growing in popularity. Mercedes stays on the path of poorly stlyed cars that reek of Chrysler and Cadillac Give me the current Audi A8 all day long over any new body style S class. Replies to this message: tagman (Jan 22, 2006 10:55 am)
#13594 of 24700 Re: Lexus vs Merc [ljflx] by tagman Jan 22, 2006 (10:53 am)
Replying to: ljflx (Jan 22, 2006 10:04 am) I do agree, as it is my understanding, that the profit margins are indeed greater for the Lexus dealers themselves than for the Mercedes dealers. I was told a number of years ago that Mercedes had for some reason changed (narrowed) those margins. They had deliberately made the MSRP much closer to the dealer's invoice. My recall on this is a bit fuzzy at this moment, but it sticks in my head for some reason that there was a deliberate action by Mercedes on this. I understand your points that are well taken, but I still think that the price advantage needs to be perceived by the buyer. Even if it translates to leasing programs that favor the Lexus for high residual values and smaller depreciation payments. So, yes, as the gap might close, there would still be buyers. Heck, if the Lexus was MORE expensive there would still be buyers (enough of them? that would need to be determined IF IF IF the gap is truly closed) . . . but in my opinion, the wider the gap (less expensive the Lexus is) = more Lexus units sold. And I believe Lexus will continue to embrace that (price advantage) strategy. OMG, I need to be thinking about football! TagMan Replies to this message: garyh1 (Jan 22, 2006 11:40 am) ljflx (Jan 22, 2006 11:46 am) tagman (Jan 22, 2006 1:34 pm)