Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#13342 of 24726 Re: A Question? [dewey]
Jan 16, 2006 (9:56 am)
The riddle is quite easily solved: Lexus brand simply did not exist in Japan until the last third of 2005. In other words, there has not yet been a full model year history of Lexus in Japan. Of course the German luxury brands dominate the market when Lexus, Infiniti and Acura are all absent; what do you expect? Cadillac or Lincoln domination? The reality is that the four Toyota sedan models (equivalent to IS, GS, LS and SC) outsold all MB and BMW models even when they were marketted as Toyota's! With a separate luxury brand identity, one can only reasonably expect better sales. On top of that, there's also the Toyota Harrier (RX) and whatever they call the equivalent of ES . . . RX and ES account for some 75-80% of Lexus sales in the US. BTW, it's interesting to note that S and 7 series account for only more or less single-digit per centage of their overall sales . . . and the biggest shocker was that cars over $33.6k only account for 8% of car sales in Japan . . . hmm . . . perhaps they have not discovered MBUSA and BMWUSA's creative financing yet: how to reduce the monthly payment to a pittance on a car that has an exhorbitant MSRP.
Also interesting to note that, Toyota is not folding its top of the line Crown models into Lexus brand in Japan.
#13343 of 24726 Re: Sales..... [designman]
Jan 16, 2006 (10:20 am)
The rapid sales growth at BMW over the past 5yrs came mainly from the SUV's. In 2000, RX300 was already the top selling luxury SUV. . . X5 and X3 did not exist yet.
#13344 of 24726 Re: Sales..... [brightness04]
Jan 16, 2006 (10:39 am)
I think the X5 started in late 99. But I think it is true that the BMW SUV lineup was less "built out" in 2000 than Lexus', given that BMW had only 1 SUV at that point, so their 5-year growth benefited more from an SUV "catch-up" than is the case for Lexus.
#13345 of 24726 Re: Sales..... [designman]
Jan 16, 2006 (10:40 am)
Now if someone said Toyota will conquer the world, I would entertain that more seriously.
Isn't Toyota on the way to becoming world's #1 car maker ?
I think BMW’s 41% is more significant and profound than Lexus’s 47% because Lexus is still establishing itself and still in the process of saturating its niche.
To the contrary, an established name like BMW should grow faster than a newbie like Lexus who needs to establish itself. But the reverse was the case, making Lexus' accomplishments even more outstanding. MB grew at ~4000 cars/yr over the last 5 years, BMW at 13,000 car/yr, and Lexus at ~20,000 cars/yr. BMW's trend is great and they obviously are doing real well, despite all the hoopla about the Bangle designs. MB is the real nut to crack. For the history and heritage of the brand, they are falling behind the leaders - Lexus, BMW (in NA) and Audi in Europe. Hopefully Cordes will have the magic wand to turn the ship around...
#13346 of 24726 Interesting numbers
Jan 16, 2006 (11:02 am)
I found this while trying to find which automaker is dominating the Japanese luxo market.
Interesting sales numbers from Japan
Unfortunately, they don't break it down by model. Interesting that Toyota is losing (relative) ground, while still selling half of all luxury (please refer to the article's own definition) vehicles. I guess that means that BMW and MB have some conquest sales. I wish it had some numbers for Audi and the U.S. ( ) luxury brands.
The article states that MB, BMW, and VW/Audi dominate the market, then comes right back with conflicting numbers. This probably illustrates what Brightness was saying about how only luxury "brands" are considered on one side of the argument, while vehicle cost is on the other. I don't think we can really say too much about the whole thing until there is a full model year (2007) with all of Lexus-Japan's cars in the lineup (the Celsior/LS is moving to Lexus this summer).
#13347 of 24726 Re: Sales..... [syswei]
Jan 16, 2006 (11:11 am)
Thanks for the link.
10 year car growth:
BMW 1995: 93,309... 2005: 197,833 up 112%
MB 1995: 76,752... 2005: 183,169 up 139%
Lexus 1995: 79,334... 2005: 151,226 up 91%
It's interesting to see that in the past 10 years, MB and BMW car sales have been increasing at a faster rate than Lexus car sales.
Lexus kills MB and BMW in SUV sales though. It was smart of them to capitalize on that market.
#13348 of 24726 Re: Sales..... [jrock65]
Jan 16, 2006 (11:20 am)
Do you have five year rates for cars alone? That may help determine the shape of the growth curve.
Jan 16, 2006 (11:28 am)
Some people like to count only cars, for reasons I just can't fathom...other than the reason that it makes German brands look better.
If you were trying to figure out from sales numbers what high-end bicycle company was meeting customer desires better, would you look only at road bikes, and exclude mountain bikes? Would that make any sense?
If you were trying to figure out from sales numbers what high-end wristwatch company was meeting customer desires better, would you look only at men's watches, and exclude ladies watches? Would that make any sense?
If SUVs don't matter, and shouldn't count, why does BMW build them? Why does MB?
Are SUVs less worthy of being counted because they have fewer wheels? No. Less expensive? No. What is the reason for not counting them, then? That Lexus does well with them?
#13350 of 24726 Re: MB, BMW?? what else you have? [hpowders]
Jan 16, 2006 (11:31 am)
I didnt say BMW is yesterdays news, I said "The BMW" meaning the 7 series. Its aging, and there's just no way it will in a comparison against the S550, or LS460. Other than the styling cues, not a lot has changed since its introduction.
#13351 of 24726 Re: MB, BMW?? what else you have? [dewey]
Jan 16, 2006 (11:35 am)
Apparently most automakers dont seem to think that the inherent balance of an I6 is worth the trade-off. It also takes a very well tuned suspension and steering system to notice the difference, I think. If Lexus switched the I6 in the SC and GS for the V6 in the ES, I dont think anybody would've noticed.