Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#13236 of 24723 A8 into the mix
Jan 14, 2006 (6:11 pm)
The only reason A8 sales are slow is the supply factor. I've sold Audi since 2000. The demand has been phenomenal since the 04 redesign. 9 in 10 A8's are presold at my store; as we speak I don't even have an 06 for you to drive in my inventory. The only A8 I have in stock is my owner's 05 demo which we just put up for sale last week. Resale has been great as well, on par with the 7 and S class as a percentage.
As for the ball busting over the names; It will never be a VW8; the brands are entirely separate; Audi is a world brand. Lexus is not. I'll never tell you my car is better than others, hey at that price, you can't buy a bad car. Different spokes for different folks. In my opinion, the 7 series handles the best, the Benz is comfortable. I love the look of the Jag and the reliability of the Lexus. The one car that does everything as good but lacks nothing is the Audi.
#13237 of 24723 Direct Injection
Jan 14, 2006 (6:37 pm)
When are BMW and MB going to add direct injection to their engines? That should give their engines about a 30 hp/torque boost, as well have a positive effect on mpg.
Lexus is doing that (4.6L direct injection V8: 380 hp) and Audi seems to be going down that path as well (4.2L direct injection V8: 350 hp).
#13238 of 24723 Re: 7-Series vs Quattroporte [designman]
Jan 14, 2006 (7:22 pm)
The difference in MSRP is large, yes, but nobody is paying MSRP for a Quattroporte, and nobody is buying a 750i with absolutely no options for $75K. If the Maserati isnt competing with the Germans, Jaguar, etc. who are they competing with? The Flying Spur isnt even close to the Maser's price tag, and everybody else is well above that. The Jag Super V8 is right on the money, and the German 12s cost more than the Maser does. Yes the engine is peaky (but there's still enough power to outrun a 750 and S550 to 60mph), and the SMG is a little rough for the usual creamy smooth HELM crowd, but its Italian. What else would you expect?
Also, I've heard that the refresh to the Quattroporte will include an optional conventional autobox.
Unfortnuately basically all of the LS460 interior shots available are of the black w/red wood show car, which is not a combination I like at all. I think with a light tan interior it would look very nice. The center stack design is basically what I expected. The RX, GS, IS, and now LS all have a similar layout. It seems to work pretty well here, as it does in the RX. The GS is ok, but I dont really like the IS version.. actually I think the 3 series looks much better (w/o iDrive), as does the TL. I'll admit I was hoping for a retractable wood panel for the Nav screen, similar to the SC430 and A8, but oh well. It's still very much a Lexus inside, although there are some Jaguar cues that are interesting.
#13240 of 24723 Re: the basic viewpoint [syswei]
Jan 14, 2006 (7:45 pm)
Very much in agreement. Many germancarfans' lines of reasoning is ridiculous and silly. Take for example:
1. sportiness somehow is a component for HEL standard; by that standard, 3 series should be higher end than 7 series;
2. then there's the endless allegations of copying; e.g. Accord copies those triagular tail lights from E class; never mind that by that same line of ridiculous and silly line of reasoning, MB "copied" from 1999 Ford Crown Victoria, which had those tail lights before any MB model did.
#13241 of 24723 Re: A8 into the mix [jpvwaudi]
Jan 14, 2006 (7:54 pm)
Audi is a world brand. Lexus is not.
By that line of logic, Toyota is a beeter brand than Lexus because it has wider world reach? VW and Audi have been feeding at each other's parts bin for many years. Frankly, that only makes good economic sense.
#13242 of 24723 Re: Lets get serious [hpowders]
Jan 14, 2006 (7:57 pm)
If I feel the LS is a premium Toyota, I will say so. I am far from alone.
That's one of the most ridiculous and silly lines of logic that I have heard in a long time; which Toyota model would the LS be premium version of? You may as well argue that MB is a premium Chrysler. At least Chrossfire shares some ancestry with SLK, Pacifica with R-class, and 300 with E-class.
#13243 of 24723 Re: 7-Series vs Quattroporte [designman]
Jan 14, 2006 (8:06 pm)
Surprised to read your comment on Quottroporte. The sentiment is exactly how I feel about BMW (too rough riding to be high end luxury), and MB (drive train, until the latest DOHC variable valve timing engines "copied" from other brands, too unrefined).
Plus, the panache and image that comes with the marque and design is another attraction no doubt.
Very well put, IMHO, for MB and BMW, in comparison to Lexus offerings, excepting the 3 series, which actually does offer a unique market propostion, although not exactly luxury.
Jan 14, 2006 (10:36 pm)
Lincoln, Cadillac, Chrysler.
Are these still considered Premium Luxury Brands???
What Do You Guys Think??
#13245 of 24723 Just wondering out loud
Jan 15, 2006 (12:02 am)
The 2006 GS3/4 twin starts at $45K all the way to $60K
The 2006 IS2/3 twin starts at $29,9 all the way to $45K
The high-end ranges used to be almost exclusively reserved for their German competitions - E/5, and 3-series, respectively. No longer, and Lexus is selling every single GS and IS they are building. By next year, the GS350/GS460 gets here. This year the GS450h arrives... All good things to keep these cars fresh...
Circa Fall 2006, the LS460/460L comes out priced much closer to MB S450/550; say like $65 - $85K. For those money people who want something higher to move up to, Lexus offers the LS600h (MY2008), comes pretty loaded (AWD, Hybrid, LWB, V12-like power) for $95K. And just for the special low volume edition, the LF-A (MY2009) with the sweet V10, pumping out >500HP, with top speed >200mph. Priced at $100K+. Now Lexus proves it is no longer playing the *value* game.... It is stepping up to the big boys.
I see these as very probable, and very realistic. I predict that the best bargain HELM car this year will be the 2006 LS430. That car will be dirt cheap compared to the base LS460, IMO.