Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#13231 of 24726 Re: Dewey....a proposal [bdr127]
Jan 14, 2006 (3:32 pm)
You should really check the facts before you state "facts" that you "believe"
And YOU should actually READ the post carefully if you are going to go so far as to criticize it. I said the ratio had increased "over the past 5 or so years", NOT that the ratio had increased over EACH of the past 5 or so years.
So, here are the facts:
BMW 7-series 2005 units: 18,165
2000 units: 16,619
+9% in 5 years
Lexus LS 2005 units: 26,043
2000 units: 15,871
+64% in 5 years
So, the LS went from selling 0.95 times as much as the 7-series five years ago to 1.43 times as much in 2005.
Jan 14, 2006 (4:34 pm)
telegraph the mother factory in Munich.
Ve...er... We can do better than this.
#13233 of 24726 Re: 7-Series vs Quattroporte [lexusguy]
Jan 14, 2006 (4:35 pm)
I certainly have no problem acknowledging the Quattroporte outhandles the 7. My point is that the Quattroporte is to HELMs what the M5 is to LPSs. The cars in the masthead of this thread are mainstream and the 7 is probably the best-handling among them. The Maserati is a different ilk, and comparing it to the BMW is apples and oranges. M up the 7 and we get a completely different animal.
BTW, the Quattroporte engine profile of high RPM and skimpy low-end torque does not belong in a heavyweight vehicle in my opinion. Also, the jerky characteristic of the sequential gearboxes is so antiluxury. It seems Quattroporte owners love their cars, but I guess these people are sport enthusiasts who simply need or love room. Plus, the panache and image that comes with the marque and design is another attraction no doubt.
A $25K difference in base price between the Maser and the Bimmer is not a lot? Hmm (scratches head).
LGÖ the RL centerstack reminds you of a boom box. But do you like the centerstack of the new LS? In all manner of its exterior and interior styling, this is the one element I really donít like.
#13234 of 24726 Re: A little perspective, please [tagman]
Jan 14, 2006 (4:48 pm)
The price argument fails in the real world where some 50-90% of BMW and MB's are leased not purchased. BMW and MB more often than not have lease costs that reflect a true market price much lower than their MSRP would suggest. For example: C230 is $299/mo, C280 is $359/mo, 325i is $369/mo, C350 is $399/mo, ES330 is $420/mo, 525i is $439/mo, IS250 is $450/mo, E350 is $480/mo, E350Wagon is $529/mo, IS350 is $530/mo. Based on these prices, which brand do you think have higher prestige value? Even S350 can be found for $440/mo! That's significantly below the cheapest way of getting any GS, much less LS. The lease subsidy perversion MB and BMW engage in make any argument based on MSRP or "sale price" completely meaningless because the sale never took place if the seller is offering a free put-option at strike prices way above real market price for used cars. I'm willing lease a Corrolla for $120k "sale price" if the lease residual is $115k; does that make Corolla a $120k high end luxury car? Certainly not. It's still a $200/mo car.
#13235 of 24726 the basic viewpoint
Jan 14, 2006 (4:56 pm)
of many of the germancarfans is that sportiness is somehow synonymous with luxury. Well, it is to THEM, as INDIVIDUALS. I can certainly accept that part of the market wants and demands sportiness in a HEL Sedan. That is their personal choice.
But to act as if more sportiness automatically equals an OBJECTIVELY better HEL Sedan is wrong-headed, imho. It basically means imposing on the rest of the world a purely personal viewpoint as to what is important in a HEL Sedan.
What is "best" to each person depends on the personal priorities of that person. What is "best" to the buying public on the whole can actually be seen in black and white in the sales figures each company puts out. Among direct competitors, that means that the E and 5 are doing a better job of meeting market desires than the GS or M; and that the LS is doing a better job of meeting overall market desires than the S or 7.
#13236 of 24726 A8 into the mix
Jan 14, 2006 (5:11 pm)
The only reason A8 sales are slow is the supply factor. I've sold Audi since 2000. The demand has been phenomenal since the 04 redesign. 9 in 10 A8's are presold at my store; as we speak I don't even have an 06 for you to drive in my inventory. The only A8 I have in stock is my owner's 05 demo which we just put up for sale last week. Resale has been great as well, on par with the 7 and S class as a percentage.
As for the ball busting over the names; It will never be a VW8; the brands are entirely separate; Audi is a world brand. Lexus is not. I'll never tell you my car is better than others, hey at that price, you can't buy a bad car. Different spokes for different folks. In my opinion, the 7 series handles the best, the Benz is comfortable. I love the look of the Jag and the reliability of the Lexus. The one car that does everything as good but lacks nothing is the Audi.
#13237 of 24726 Direct Injection
Jan 14, 2006 (5:37 pm)
When are BMW and MB going to add direct injection to their engines? That should give their engines about a 30 hp/torque boost, as well have a positive effect on mpg.
Lexus is doing that (4.6L direct injection V8: 380 hp) and Audi seems to be going down that path as well (4.2L direct injection V8: 350 hp).
#13238 of 24726 Re: 7-Series vs Quattroporte [designman]
Jan 14, 2006 (6:22 pm)
The difference in MSRP is large, yes, but nobody is paying MSRP for a Quattroporte, and nobody is buying a 750i with absolutely no options for $75K. If the Maserati isnt competing with the Germans, Jaguar, etc. who are they competing with? The Flying Spur isnt even close to the Maser's price tag, and everybody else is well above that. The Jag Super V8 is right on the money, and the German 12s cost more than the Maser does. Yes the engine is peaky (but there's still enough power to outrun a 750 and S550 to 60mph), and the SMG is a little rough for the usual creamy smooth HELM crowd, but its Italian. What else would you expect?
Also, I've heard that the refresh to the Quattroporte will include an optional conventional autobox.
Unfortnuately basically all of the LS460 interior shots available are of the black w/red wood show car, which is not a combination I like at all. I think with a light tan interior it would look very nice. The center stack design is basically what I expected. The RX, GS, IS, and now LS all have a similar layout. It seems to work pretty well here, as it does in the RX. The GS is ok, but I dont really like the IS version.. actually I think the 3 series looks much better (w/o iDrive), as does the TL. I'll admit I was hoping for a retractable wood panel for the Nav screen, similar to the SC430 and A8, but oh well. It's still very much a Lexus inside, although there are some Jaguar cues that are interesting.
#13240 of 24726 Re: the basic viewpoint [syswei]
Jan 14, 2006 (6:45 pm)
Very much in agreement. Many germancarfans' lines of reasoning is ridiculous and silly. Take for example:
1. sportiness somehow is a component for HEL standard; by that standard, 3 series should be higher end than 7 series;
2. then there's the endless allegations of copying; e.g. Accord copies those triagular tail lights from E class; never mind that by that same line of ridiculous and silly line of reasoning, MB "copied" from 1999 Ford Crown Victoria, which had those tail lights before any MB model did.