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High End Luxury Cars

24723 messages,  Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum.

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan



Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Messages Page 1322 of 2474

#13202 of 24723 A little perspective, please by garyh1

Jan 13, 2006 (11:44 pm)

You know, I would like to comment on some of these posts, but by the time I find the time to read them all, I have to go do something else in my "real" non-electronic life.
 
Do you folks realize the volume of messages you are all posting? This forum has been running for just over 6 years, and for those first 6 years there were an average of just over 2000 messages per year (BTW, merc1 had 2 of the first 10). Since January 1st of this year, there have been 722 posts in just 13 days - that's the equivalent of over 20,000 posts per year, or over 10 times the previous rate of posting.
 
So if that's the quantitative analysis, how about a qualitative analysis? Does anyone believe that the rantings about the "barge-like" qualities of the LS, or the failure of the BMW 7 to be a true HELM, or the superiority of the LS being proven by its sales (as opposed to sales showing that the LS better captures what the American public wants in a car than the S does), or - perhaps what IMHO will be the worst prediction ever made on this board - that the new LS will fail in the marketplace after the first year*, really add anything to our shared knowledge about luxury cars?
 
How about this as a New Year's resolution for 2006: let's shoot for less quantity and more quality!
 
*Dewey, I hope your stock picks are better than your auto sales projections! Do you really think that by fall 2007 LS will no longer be the sales leader in this segment? If so, I'll take that wager with you - you choose the amount.

#13203 of 24723 Land Cruiser and LX470 by jrock65

Jan 14, 2006 (12:14 am)

Land Cruiser sales are really hurt by the Sequoia, which outsells it almost 10 to 1. People go into a Toyota showroom and choose the cheaper, bigger and almost as luxurious Sequoia over the Land Cruiser.
 
The LX470 doesn't have a Sequoia equivalent sitting next to it taking away sales. There's a reason why Lexus is planning to replace the LX altogether with a Sequoia based JX470.

#13204 of 24723 Dewey....a proposal by syswei

Jan 14, 2006 (3:19 am)

Replying to: dewey (Jan 13, 2006 7:53 pm)
I am willing to wager that after the first year of intro, LS sales will fizzle and fall flat like Coca Cola sitting in a glass for three days!
 
Have sales of the current LS "fizzled"? No, in fact the ratio of LS sales to S or 7 sales has I believe INCREASED over the past 5 or so years. Note that even though the current LS is "older" (further along in its lifecycle) than the 7, it handily outsells the 7.
 
Well, if you're truly "willing to wager", put your money where your mouth is. Here's a proposal: I bet you that the LS still outsells the 7, say in the calendar year 2010. We engage a lawyer to hold bets in escrow. Minimum bet $5k. Send an email to me via Pat (host) if you are interested (just request that it be forwarded to me).

#13205 of 24723 Dewey by syswei

Jan 14, 2006 (3:29 am)

Oh yes, the "LS sells more because it's cheaper" arguement.
 
You've admitted that prestige is "worth something". That a higher price / higher prestige product can outsell a lower price product if the prestige is basically priced appropriately.
 
You recognize that Lexus prestige is lower than that of BMW and especially MB. Doesn't that translate into something in sales terms to you? Doesn't it mean that if real people viewed two cars, A and B as exactly the same except for prestige, the higher priced one could sell the same number of units, if it had enough "extra" prestige to justify the higher price?
 
The only question is, how much is that prestige worth? Because we don't know the answer, you can't blithely explain away Lexus' sales success as being due to lower prices, because there is an offsetting factor of unknown impact...prestige. If the true "street" price of an equivalently configured LS is 10% lower than a 7, we don't know if the 7's higher presitge is worth 5%, 10%, 15%, or some other number to the average customer.
 
Yes, it is easy to say, and true, that lower prices help Lexus. But that should always go along with an equally true statement, that higher prestige helps MB and BMW vs Lexus.

#13206 of 24723 Re: Dewey....a proposal [syswei] by dewey

Jan 14, 2006 (4:56 am)

Replying to: syswei (Jan 14, 2006 3:19 am)
Well, if you're truly "willing to wager", put your money where your mouth is. Here's a proposal: I bet you that the LS still outsells the 7, say in the calendar year 2010. We engage a lawyer to hold bets in escrow. Minimum bet $5k. Send an email to me via Pat (host) if you are interested (just request that it be forwarded to me).
 
I only make bets on securities that have a margin of safety. Your bet offers no margin of safety. Therefore I have no choice but to refuse it.
 
My LS wager involves risking my credibility here in this virtual community . That in itself is worth more than $5K or a Mona Lisa painting.

#13207 of 24723 Re: Dewey....a proposal [dewey] by lexusguy

Jan 14, 2006 (5:13 am)

Replying to: dewey (Jan 14, 2006 4:56 am)
I predict that LS sales will be stronger than ever before. The future of the IS and GS are not something I'd be willing to bet on, as those cars have pretty shaky histories. However, if there's a "sure thing" in the U.S. HELM market, the LS is it. We win, you lose. Sorry, better luck next time.
 
By the way, you really need to get behind the wheel of a Quattroporte. I'd call it an Ultimate Driving Machine.

#13208 of 24723 And Yet... by hpowders

Jan 14, 2006 (7:03 am)

the 2005 Quattroporte only had an Edmunds consumer rating of 8.4.
Tough crowd!

#13209 of 24723 Re: A little perspective, please [garyh1] by ljflx

Jan 14, 2006 (7:21 am)

Replying to: garyh1 (Jan 13, 2006 11:44 pm)
Gary - when the new S was revealed the board hardly made a stir. Most of the talk was the style decreased, the wheel arches were way overdone and hurt the car badly and that the interior was a carbon copy of the 7-series. But most of those were brief and people moved on. The new LS debuts and all hell breaks loose with 100's of posts. Why - People can't handle it or the excitement in the Lexus camp and have a need to knock the brand as low as they can because of what's coming (3 LS cars, an LFA, a redesigned and probably great SC and hybrids everywhere to steal the thunder as exotic lux cars). Then they talk about nonsense that the car lost something from the Tokyo concept when it's 99% the same (the tiny difference is the grill which is exclusive to the LS600H) and of course the lamest of the lame that it's a copy of the 7 and a big Camry at the same time. Of course logic 101 says that makes the 7 a big Camry as well. Carry that logic through and it means Lexus solely built the LS and the new Camry to dethrone the lowest of the big 3 large sedan lux sellers and one whose best year ever doesn't even come close to the LS' lowest selling year since 2001. Then there's Dewey's absurd LS sales prediction, the same Dewey that a month ago thought DCX is a better growth bet than Toyota (Toyota's up 20-25% since and DCX is nowhere in that months time) and that the US stock market is going nowhere (my portfolio is up 10% in that time period). Gosh I hope he's kidding with the board about some of this because otherwise some of these judgements are the worst in board history.
 
Tagman asked what emotions the LS stirs last night. Answer in the Lexican land - tremendous excitement and a wish that the car was already here; In Euroland - tremendous fear and denial to most but reasonable to very good objectivity from Tagman and Designman. What's worse is the auto rags they love to use for defense and proof of greatness, and hence a large asset for german cars, are starting to turn on them.

#13210 of 24723 Re: Dewey....a proposal [dewey] by grandaddy

Jan 14, 2006 (7:26 am)

Replying to: dewey (Jan 14, 2006 4:56 am)
HMMMMMMMM! Well folks it looks like the old saying is true. Money talks and B.S. walks.

#13211 of 24723 Re: Dewey....a proposal [syswei] by bdr127

Jan 14, 2006 (7:53 am)

Replying to: syswei (Jan 14, 2006 3:19 am)
Have sales of the current LS "fizzled"? No, in fact the ratio of LS sales to S or 7 sales has I believe INCREASED over the past 5 or so years.
 
You should really check the facts before you state "facts" that you "believe".... In fact, 7-series sales were up by over 12% for 2005, while LS430 sales were down by 19%. Hence, the sales ratio DECREASED as recent as just last year.

Messages Page 1322 of 2474

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