Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#13011 of 24726 Re: merc1 [syswei]
Jan 11, 2006 (10:04 pm)
But let's say you're right (for the sake of arguement, and I'd still like to hear an unbiased opinion for instance from designman), and the Camry is a clone. What makes it ok for the S to copy the Maybach butt, but not ok for the Camry to copy the LS butt?
I guess it is acceptable when a German company does it, but not acceptable when a Japanese company does it?
Yeah its more acceptable for Mercedes to take cues from Maybach because for one the Maybach was to be a "Mercedes" in the first place. Remember the original concept from the Tokyo autoshow in 1997? Secondly, the knock your fellow Lexus fans heaped on MB (and others) was that they made their cheap cars look like the least expensive ones. Well the S taking cues from the Maybach is the opposite. Big difference from that to a LS430 looking like a overfed Camry. Huge difference!
#13012 of 24726 Re: From the NY Times [ljflx]
Jan 11, 2006 (10:09 pm)
Merc1 may not like the styling but everyone else does.
Everyone? Try the NYT likes the styling. They in no way, shape of form speak for "everyone". Is this the same "source" that had a writer that said something ridiculous about liking a Maxima more than LS430?
#13013 of 24726 Re: Copying, Gimmicks etc.... [brightness04]
Jan 11, 2006 (10:16 pm)
Try look at 1989 LS400 and 1989 420SE side by side. The 420SE with its busy grill protruding like a tumor is positively ghastly and the rest of the car was replete with 80's boxy designs. Whereas the LS400, by the looks alone it can well be a car made today, with all its cleanly flowing lines.
I already gave you that the original LS400 was a rounder car, but it doensn't look anything today to my eyes. Just a large Toyota. True the W126 S looks like it was from another era because it was, having debuted in 1979.
Strangely enough I agree *somewhat* about the original Audi V8 and the original LS400 - that agreement being that they were both rounder than the W126 S, though the Audi was no curve presentation either. However Audi being a nobody doesn't have anything to do with them being the one to usher in the Aero theme with their 5000 model. This had a lot of influence on a lot of cars including the original Ford Taurus.
Going back to 1906 really doesn't make sense to me so you can have that one. Hell if we're going to go back that far then why not 1886? Really silly IMO, we're talking about modern day car styling.
Don't know enough or care enough to get into a ridiculous arguement about semis and who copied who.
#13014 of 24726 Re: Autoextremist loves the new LS [tagman]
Jan 11, 2006 (10:29 pm)
oac - when you say "dethrone", what exactly are you referring to?
Yeah I'd like to know too. The only S-Class model the LS has "dethroned" has always been the entry-level model. I have never seen a S500 lose a fight to any LS model. Secondly the "S-Class" isn't just one car, it is a group of cars and to beat the S-Class you have to have something at the top to compete with the upper models, which is why Lexus is going for their faux "LS600h" to do battle at the upper end. When you look at the big picture the LS is hottest car in the segment (by sales) in the U.S, but worldwide the S-Class is still the segment leader by far, and if the S-Class isn't (as some say) then its the A8.
#13016 of 24726 Re: Catching some ZZZZZZ's in the back of the LS460L [oac]
Jan 11, 2006 (10:37 pm)
Why not just promote the heck out of the Bimmer 745/750 and S500/550 ? There is no need to bash Lexus to make anyone feel good...
Good advice, now remember that next time you knock the S and predict the end of Mercedes-Benz. This is hilarious. The 2007 LS thread is nothing but a Mercedes this and Mercedes that thread. Lexusfans can't help but mention Mercedes whenever a new Lexus comes out. Go to the MB threads and see how much they mention Lexus, let alone knock Lexus like you Lexus guys knock Mercedes. That was good advice, but the source is just really interesting. I have never seen a group of car fans so pre-occupied with a competitor brand whenever their favorite brand introduces a car.
#13017 of 24726 A Shift in Gears..........
Jan 11, 2006 (11:10 pm)
What are everyone's predictions for 2006 brandwise? What new products does everyone's fav brand have on the way (that we somewhat know about that is)? I'll start with the two most popular first.
BMW - 300K+ units for 2006? The 3-Series continues its rollout and will save BMW's overall sales picture from the pending downturn in 7-Series sales. (a new S is in town). E-Class and 5-Series will duke it out again, but the 5 won't win in 2006 with a revised E on the way. New X5 due this fall, important in the sales race for them. M5 and M6 remain sold out for 2006. M6 cabrio on the way by the end of the year.
Lexus - Likely to hit 350K sales in 2006 with all the new an relatively new product they have on tap. Yes all you Lexusfans your brand will sail to new sales heights for 2006 for sure. The LS, IS and GS will do this, but I see a big dropoff for their aging SUVs (minues the RX) and the SC430. Since there is a new Camry, I suspect a new ES"350" is due for spring? A GS350 and GS460 will be added late in the year.
Mercedes-Benz - Will hit 250-260K or so this year on the back of the ML,S,CLS,E (E facelift by summer), GL. The R-Class (which I like for some reason), has seen a gradual increase in sales every month but I don't think it will ever be a "hit" in its current guise. C-Class will have a bad year due to its own age and the newer competition. New CL is due in the fall, but that isn't a volume seller per. Facelifted SL due by summer also.
Audi - lots of new niche models coming for 2006 and a new SUV. The RS4, S8, S6, and Q7 to be exact. I don't see a major spike in sales for them, but the Q7 will be a hit (for them that is). The A6 will likely get the new FSI V8 and the new 280hp V6 from the Passat during 2006.
Infiniti - will cool down somewhat in 2006 with the G35 aging the Q45 a non-starter. The next G isn't due until spring 2007 from what I've seen? The M will continue to gain new friends in 2006, but I see Infiniti sales being flat overall for 2006.
Jaguar - New XK will be a hit of course, but it alone can't save the company. They'll likely end up selling less units in 2006 compared to 2005 overall because the XJ is falling, the S-Type has fallen the X-Type can't get up.
Cadillac - Really impressed with the STS-V and XLR-V models, but the real news for them is the new Escalade. In in pics you can tell this is much better vehicle than before. The interior alone at least looks like it comes from someone other than GM. These will be hits for about the first few months but as summer comes and gas prices spike again (as we know they will do) they might face some sales hurdles.
#13018 of 24726 Re: A Shift in Gears.......... [merc1]
Jan 12, 2006 (1:15 am)
I hope after seeing the recepetion to the R-class, BMW decides the "luxury minivan" is not a hot new segment begging for more entries, and cans the R-class fighter they are working on.
I'm not sure that Lexus SUV sales are going to take that much of a hit. The 400h should help boost RX sales, and the GX is really not that old, it was brand new for '03, no older than FX, and much newer than the comparatively ancient Acura MDX. They wont sell many LX470s, but they've never sold many LX470s. '07 will bring brand new versions of both of Lexus' biggest selling cars, and they should have a very good year.
For Audi's sake, I hope they are able to save the Q7 from the curse of Toureg that is giving Toureg and Cayenne reliability scores that make Land Rover look great. The A6 isnt getting a new V6 any time soon, and definitely not the Passat's VR6. It faces the wrong way.
Infiniti is showing the "concept coupe" which is basically the next G35 coupe, so I dont think that the next G is that far away. I think it will definitely be a '07 model, just not sure when its going to show up.
I think the XK is going to do well, but as you said, it cant save the company. They basically already need a brand new XJ, even though the current version is just 2 years old. The new Benz S and the LS460 are just going to slaughter it. Whats worse, considering how long the last XJ6\8 and XK ran, the XJ will additionally have to deal with a brand new 7 series, and at least an updated A8 before it even gets a refresh, let alone a redesign.
Pushing Jag up into the "new Bentley" space of $150K products seems like the only place to go, as there's just no way they can compete in the volume luxury arena. If\when they get there though, I dont think Ford will be the owner any more. Ford just doesnt have the scratch to fund that kind of a transition, which could take a decade.
The interiors for all of the new GM full-size trucks, even the Chevy Tahoe, are really impressive. Not quite as good as the latest Toyota interiors, but better than just about every one else in the segment. I never thought I'd say that about a GM product. Cadillac needs a new CTS though, and quick.
#13019 of 24726 Re: A Shift in Gears.......... [lexusguy]
Jan 12, 2006 (1:23 am)
You would think BMW would do that, but the rivalry in Germany is way too hot for them to back down now. They'll do a R-Class competitor if it kills them. I suspect they'll make a better one as far as fun to drive and maybe in looks, but I don't see how it will be any bigger and still keep the BMW sport theme intact. The saying was that BMW product planning was carried out in Stuttgart.
I forgot about that, they've turned the arrangement around for the Passat for this generation! The Q7 I've seen is supposed to get the Passat V6 though. I gotta look up that info again.
Yeah the Jaguar XJ does have a long time to go, but then again maybe not. Automobile is running a story this month about a radical re-skin planned for 2009 which will see the XJ move away from the tough S/LS/7 segment and turns towards the CLS/Quattroporte segment. I keep seeing where everyone says that Jaguar is going to be taken upmarket to face Bentley, but I've never read that anywhere? Such a thing I don't think is possible.
Jan 12, 2006 (4:52 am)
What is the talk on what will happen with Maybach? It looks like 2005 unit sales were way, way below the company's original plans. Will they go downmarket a bit, like Bentley? Or fold the division entirely?