Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#12840 of 24723 Re: Percentage leased... [tagman]
Jan 10, 2006 (2:33 pm)
I don't want to get too much into lease vs. buying, lest we raise the ire of hosts (and justifiably so). What you said about lease vs. loan is correct in a conventional case dealing with third-party banks. The case is quite different with vendor financing. Lease with inflated residual can be a very effective way of cooking books on sales revenue. What happens is that, some manufacturers often offer lease incentives and money factors that are simply not available on loans. For example, there was a $3k-7k dealer incentive on leasing E class in December; much of it was simply not available if you buy. Then there's the lease-end buy-out price re-negotiation, which is simply not an option if you bought the car to begin with. This is not a general comment on lease vs. buying; it only happens when certain manufacturers have very inflated residual.
For real life example, when I got my Saab 9-5 in 2001, there was a $5000 lease incentive and a $5500 purchase incentive . . . obviously the lease incentive was much stronger since the $5k is to offset roughly half the car's value depreciated in 3 years whereas the $5.5k would have to offset the entire car's price (it would take a $10k purchase incentive to make the two deals a wash). On top of that, lease money factor was near-zero whereas getting a near-zero loan from the manufacturer would forfeit the $5.5k purchase incentive (either cash or low loan finance but not both), not that I would borrow anyway. Furthermore, I knew that the residual was inflated, so I fully planned on re-negotiating my buy-out in three years. Indeed, I got another $1700 off buy-out at lease end ($500 had to offset the acquisition fee at the beginning), so effectively I got $6200 off invoice price ($5k + 1.7k - 0.5k) through leasing vs maxmum of $5.5k through buying, plus letting my $32k sitting in a bank for three years earning interest amounting to another couple thousand $'s (and those were the lowest interest years). Yes, I did/do have that much cash and more sitting in my bank at all time, so cash flow was/is quite irrelevent. Just to bring it somewhat related to H.E.L.M, the car had an MSRP of $43k, and was the very top end of Saab at the time.
I know a number of people doing exactly the same thing on their BMW and MB's right now. As you can see, even lease subsidy and inflated MSRP with massive discount through lease are not new ideas; MB and BMW are "copying" from GMAC/Saab Financial on those shenanigans.
Like I said before, there is no fast rules about lease vs. buying nowadays with the manufacturers doing the vendor financing. It's strictly case by case basis. You have to dig through the numbers for yourself, and most people getting cars in this range can do the math and follow the money; that's why most people lease not buy new MB and BMW's nowadays.
#12841 of 24723 Re: Average driver doesn't always know better [tagman]
Jan 10, 2006 (2:41 pm)
Our agreement is simply that copying can be a good thing, but IMO, Lexus to a large degree ESTABLISHED itself through the process. I doubt you will agree with that.
Considering that Lexus did not exist before 1989, it had to do something it never did before (the classic existential question) and also considering there was a luxury car market already someone had to have done some of what Lexus was about to be doing (another classic self-evident existentialist statement). Whether that is "copying" is quite in the eyes of the behold. If you think fielding a luxury-looking car that share common themes of luxury cars since 1906 Rolls Royce Silver Ghost, (slab side, broad shoulder, high belt line)is "copying" then one has to conclude that all the existing players in 1989 subsequently copied from Lexus for those rounded lines and corners in their styling exercises.
#12842 of 24723 Re: Average driver doesn't always know better [brightness04]
Jan 10, 2006 (2:53 pm)
Considering that Lexus did not exist before 1989, it had to do something it never did before (the classic existential question) and also considering there was a luxury car market already someone had to have done some of what Lexus was about to be doing (another classic existential philosophical issue). Whether that is "copying" is quite in the eyes of the behold.
No "classical existential philosophical" blah blah here . . .
simply put . . . YES, IMHO, it was (and IS) copying. No judgement attached.
#12843 of 24723 Re: Average driver doesn't always know better [tagman]
Jan 10, 2006 (2:55 pm)
No "classical existential philosophical" blah blah here . . . simply put . . . YES, IMHO, it was (and IS) copying. No judgement attached.
Then MB, BMW and Audi all copied rounded corners, edges and the general modernized look from Lexus; they were all squarish three-boxes before Lexus showed up in 1989-92 with curves. No judgement attached.
#12844 of 24723 I don't suppose it would be possible
Jan 10, 2006 (2:57 pm)
for those who want to engage in the copying argument to use the Search This Discussion feature and find out that that particular, um, nuance of this discussion has been beaten way, way more to death already ... several times over ...
#12845 of 24723 Re: I don't suppose it would be possible [pat]
Jan 10, 2006 (3:08 pm)
Jan 10, 2006 (3:40 pm)
I am impressed, although not surprised, that Lexus has decided to offer a long wheelbase version of the LS. Lexus needed to do this, given the wheelbase on the new Mercedes S-Class, the long wheelbase on the BMW 760Li, and, of less competitive importance, the long wheelbase on the Jaguar XJL and XJ VandenPlas.
DVD video option in the headrests? Center console? Roof? Or is it the new "Lexus 3-D holographic projection system"?
#12847 of 24723 Re: More on Lexus Intelligent Park Assist system [ljflx]
Jan 10, 2006 (4:12 pm)
Okay. Name one thing on BMW's that diminishes the driving experience.
IDrive? Nobody I know uses it when driving. Its purpose is to set it and forget it.
I don't have anything on my 545 that interferes with the driving experience except, perhaps, the cruise control, which I have never used and have always felt should be banned from all vehicles because it encourages dangerous lack of attention to the road.
When BMW gives you stability control, at least it can be turned off if you want to be daring and experience the thrill of a lifetime. Not so with Lexus.
#12848 of 24723 Re: Average driver doesn't always know better [sv7887]
Jan 10, 2006 (4:27 pm)
How is IDrive a gimmick? It's a mini-computer which lets you customize the car in so many wonderful ways rather than have it pre-set at the dealer who really doesn't want to be bothered. You don't use it when driving although when stopped at a light, with one click of the knob, you can find out your up to the second mpg.
Have you ever driven a BMW with IDrive and actually set some vehicle functions with it or are you doing what so many posters around here do and just regurgitate stuff you have read somewhere?
Jan 10, 2006 (4:30 pm)
I think the DVD displays are on the back side of the front head rests, for the benefit of the rear passengers, just like in airline seats . . . and those of Rolls and Maybach.
Holographic projection directly into the brain of driver via EM trasmission would be a neat trick