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High End Luxury Cars

24723 messages,  Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum.

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan



Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Messages Page 1284 of 2474

#12822 of 24723 Re: Percentage leased... [scott1256] by brightness04

Jan 10, 2006 (12:26 pm)

Replying to: scott1256 (Jan 10, 2006 12:03 pm)
IMHO, price range is one factor; an even more significant factor is "vendor financing," regardless whether it is done through lease or loans from the manufacturer. It's a way for the manufacturer to book imaginary sales up front, only to back out of the books later. The practice is okay so long as unit sales are going up . . . the residual shortfall three years later can be papered over with increased sales at that time . . . however, eventually a down turn in economic cycle kills the Pyramid Scheme. The telecom equipment companies in 2000 was a classic case, putting their shares into a 80-90% nose dive.
 
Today, for MB and BMW, especially MB, lease subsidy seems to be the favored form of "vendor financing." The fact that you can not possibly get any lease deal from real banks at rates anywhere close to what the vendors are offering is indicative that the cars are being cleared through the market at much lower prices than the nominal "sale prices" in those leases.

#12823 of 24723 Re: More on Lexus Intelligent Park Assist system [dewey] by brightness04

Jan 10, 2006 (12:34 pm)

Replying to: dewey (Jan 10, 2006 10:25 am)
I had no idea that all this time your concept of driving excitement is parallel parking the old fashioned way! Wow! How much fun is parallel parking a 202" sedan the old fashioned way anyway? Why would anyone consider that part of driving excitement? Do you have a 4200lb car without power steering too? That would be really fun for parallel parking. Heck, even the steering wheel system with reduction gears is a pointless gizmo for the really hard core parkers; a tiller is much more fun . . . Not!

#12824 of 24723 Re: Percentage leased... [scott1256] by ljflx

Jan 10, 2006 (12:34 pm)

Replying to: scott1256 (Jan 10, 2006 12:03 pm)
I know about 20 people that have these cars and not one doesn't lease. The whole way the lease deals are advertised tells you the skew is heavy on leasing. Lexus would rather lease because it is conservative on residuals and the cars are always worth a lot more at lease end, thus the company makes big profits on the next sale. BMW's whole marketing dynamics are lease driven as are MB's. Buying manufacturing equipment for a business is a totally different ballgame than buying cars for personal use. Car prices are also stratified entirely differently and the buyers are entirely different - consumers vs business. A very high percentage of successful people rather have cash on hand for current and future opportunities rather than put huge sums of money into assets that depreciate rapidly. In fact many successful people don't even have that type of liquidity around. Often it's tied up in investing opportunities or business ventures. When you write a $90K check for a car it's not costing you $90K. It's costing you $90K plus what you could have earned on the money in whatever opportunities existed - be they CD's, tax deferred annuities, deferring compensation, real estate, the stock market or a business venture. And of course in 3 years you'd be lucky to sell you're $90K asset for $50K.

#12825 of 24723 Re: Certainly no mercedes vehicles look similar [merc1] by ctsang

Jan 10, 2006 (12:44 pm)

Replying to: merc1 (Jan 10, 2006 6:43 am)
How come the MB R class looks almost the same as the Pacifica? This is one of the MB class I won't buy since I don't want people to think I own a Chrysler.

#12826 of 24723 Re: Average driver doesn't always know better [tagman] by brightness04

Jan 10, 2006 (12:52 pm)

Replying to: tagman (Jan 10, 2006 12:17 pm)
And since when is it a surprise to see the Toyota/Lexus connection when it comes to styling? The photos provided by Merc1 are more evidence. They should not be a surprise to anyone.
 
I can agree that the current Camry and current ES share many styling cues. However, the "evidence" shown by M regarding the rear ends of 07 Camry and LS460? They are only similar in the sense that they are both 3-box sedans without circular tail lights. That's about it. There are only so many elements in rear end design: rear light stack shape, trunk shape/proportion, license plate recess shape/proportion, chrome strip, position of center/high-mount brake light, antenna choice, bumper shape and outline, and where/how roofline meets the belt line. That's about it if you are not interested in turning your sedan into a wagon or hatchback. Not a single design element in that list are similar for 07 Camry and LS460!
 
On the other hand, if you look at the rear ends of E vs. Accord, triangular tail light assemblies, size and shape of center-mount brake lights, license plate recess and chrome strip, trunk lid shape etc. are all the same! The similarity between C and S needs no elaboration, and C is priced between Camry and ES, whereas S is priced both below and above LS depending on model.

#12827 of 24723 Re: Average driver doesn't always know better [brightness04] by tagman

Jan 10, 2006 (1:17 pm)

Replying to: brightness04 (Jan 10, 2006 12:52 pm)
I agree that Honda has also included design elements from the German cars, as has Toyota/Lexus historically.
 
Intertesting that it is the German cars that they tend to copy. The biggest exception to that, however, was the way they copied the Chrysler minivan when it first set that market on fire. They did a brilliant job, too.
 
TagMan

#12828 of 24723 anyone seee the Chrysler Imperial? by ljflx

Jan 10, 2006 (1:31 pm)

Could be another hit. Looks like a poor mans Rolls to me, particularly the front end.

#12829 of 24723 Re: new gimmicks [scott1256] by tagman

Jan 10, 2006 (1:34 pm)

Replying to: scott1256 (Jan 10, 2006 12:24 pm)
If buyers love and use a feature it isn't a gimmick.
 
I like your perspective, but time will ultimately tell if park-assist really catches on. Certainly with the Toyota/Lexus marketers behind it, the odds are greatly increased.
 
I can just see the BMW driver finishing up a terrific drive, and then only to "auto-park" the "M" . . . it's schizophrenic . . . the very thought is making me sick. Can this happen?
 
TagMan

#12830 of 24723 Re: Average driver doesn't always know better [tagman] by brightness04

Jan 10, 2006 (1:34 pm)

Replying to: tagman (Jan 10, 2006 1:17 pm)
I agree that Honda has also included design elements from the German cars, as has Toyota/Lexus historically.
  
Intertesting that it is the German cars that they tend to copy.
 
And Germans like to copy others in the drive train department . . . such as variable valve timing (Honda first), automatic transmission (GM first), CVT (Subaru first), supercharger (American patent), and even as we speak they are scrambling to "copy" hybrid (Toyota being the most successful leader in the field at this point).
 
The biggest exception to that, however, was the way they copied the Chrysler minivan when it first set that market on fire.
 
Not true at all. For over a decade after Chrysler's minivan introduction, both Honda and Toyota fielded very different animals from Caravan. The original Honda Odyssey had four conventional doors; Toyota Previa was probably the most unique minivan ever, with the super-charged engine inside the car behind the driver's seat. Caravan won the minivan game on size, and size is not a patentable idea nor is it original. The original Odyssey started the disappearing thir-row seat that virtually every minivan maker copies nowadays, and current Sienna took the segment to an entirely new luxurious dimension. MB R class is apparently copying the failure of the original Odyssey, with four conventional doors and small interior space. Apparently Germans are really bad at learning from others' mistakes . . . a giant step backwards from their brilliant chacellor von Bismark's utterance some 150 years ago: only fools learn from their own mistakes; smart people learn from others.
 
Can we just get off this "copy" nonsense? As Bismark so eloquently put it, learning from others is simply the smart thing to do.

#12831 of 24723 Re: Average driver doesn't always know better [tagman] by sv7887

Jan 10, 2006 (1:35 pm)

Replying to: tagman (Jan 10, 2006 12:17 pm)
Are you kidding me?
 
  What do you think iDrive is? That has got to be the biggest gimmick I have ever seen. MB and BMW's are filled with all sorts of useless gimmicks. Try Steer by Wire and Night Vision. Can you give me one good reason why this is needed? I still don't see the need to control my AC using a Joystick! If you think the Park Assist is a gimmick, then the Germans are chock full of them.
   
The only resemblance I see between the Camry and LS is that they are both low profile cars. The tailights and bumper have no resemblance. It's like saying the C Class and S Class are the same car. I don't see the BMW resemblance beyond the roof line. The new LS is closer to the IS than anything.
 
SV

Messages Page 1284 of 2474

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