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High End Luxury Cars

24723 messages,  Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum.

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan



Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Messages Page 1278 of 2473

#12766 of 24723 Re: Percentage leased... [dewey] by brightness04

Jan 10, 2006 (1:54 am)

Replying to: dewey (Jan 09, 2006 12:40 pm)
Excellent point. 75 to 85% leased sounds like mere hearsay to me.
 
Scott's 50% number was very much pulled out of thin air. Look at this article:
 
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050410/news_1b10leasing.html
 
It cites BMW dealership number at roughly 70%. That was early April 2005, before the flurry of subsidized lease deals came out late in the year. I'd be very surprised if less than 75% (if not 90%) of MB acquired in December were leased. The heavily subsidized leases probably single-handedly accounted for the dramatic sales rise MB enjoyed in December. $299/mo for a C sedan with V6, that's just bloody incredible (for anyone never had a previous experience with recent vintage MB anyway); the 4-cyl C hatch cost more than $400/mo half a decade ago, when the banks were doing the leases not the manufacturer's captive finance arms doing it like now.

#12767 of 24723 Re: The LS460 does NOT look like a BMW 7-Series!! [brightness04] by merc1

Jan 10, 2006 (1:57 am)

Replying to: brightness04 (Jan 10, 2006 1:37 am)
In other words, you are rebutting yourself again. . . this time, debunking what you wrote earlier about Lexus copying MB and BMW. Looking like a giant Toyota Camry is still better than looking like a giant Ford Focus, like the new S-class.
 
The S-Class may have the wheel arches from various cars, but not even you can spin this around with those pics staring you in the face. The S-Class doesn't look like a Ford Focus overall, like the LS does a Camry. I love it! The only response is about Mercedes, not anything to refute that the LS460 (the next coming of the automobile according to the Lexusfolks here) looks like Xerox copy of a Camry!
 
This LS/Camry relationship rebuts all that nonsense about L-Finesse and Lexus having their own design studio separate from Toyota. More importantly it eradicates the argument from Lexusfans about how Mercedes/BMW/Audi makes all their cars look alike is some terrible, brand devaluing practice. Lexus does the same thing, but not only Lexus-branded vehicles, but with mere "Toyotas". Hilarious!
 
BTW, I'm really curious about this "copying" hypothesis some Europhiles are fond of throwing around. What exactly is the objective criteria here? If acquiring an in-house turner AMG division is not "copying" BMW's M market success because AMG cars are automatic-only and have more torque; yet Lexus IS350 is judged "copying" BMW's 3 despite offering automatic-only and have more horsepower and far superior interior integration. . . what gives?
 
STYLING is the "criteria". AMG vehicles don't look like Motorsport vehicles! A CLS doesn't look like an M5. A SLK55 doesn't look like an M Roadster and so on.
 
Apart from the tuner cars an Audi doesn't look like a Jaguar, a Mercedes doesn't look like an Audi, an Audi doesn't look like BMW. Lexus on the other hand made a point of making their best car look just like a Mercedes S-Class for all these years before just now switching to the 7-Series-mated-with-a-Camry look!
 
I don't see why this is so hard to understand. Each European car has their own design language, (for better or worse) while Lexus gets their from other brand's design studios.
 
I love it that you can't refute that the LS460 looks like a Camry! The only rebuttal is that "others do it to".
 
IMHO, the reality of the matter is that carmakers have had a long history of improving upon each other's innovations, taking the industry to new heights even as they attempt to wrestle market share from each other. . . much to the benefit of us consumers
 
All true, but with Toyota they'll take your styling too, or they'll just size up one of their family cars and sell it is a new design direction to the faithful. What a brilliant concept!
 
Lastly, the AMG and M and why Mercedes bought AMG is beyond tired at this point. They bought AMG because they were already making great modified versions of their cars and AMG was started by former Mercedes engineers it was a natural fit. Strictly as a business proposition I'm sure they looked at having a tuning arm like BMW's M, but in concept the cars couldn't be more different. The CARS (which is what we were talking about) are NOT copies.
 
M

#12768 of 24723 Re: Percentage leased... [brightness04] by merc1

Jan 10, 2006 (2:03 am)

Replying to: brightness04 (Jan 10, 2006 1:54 am)
You right about leases being more expensive when banks controlled the market, but what does this one dealership have to do with the brand and what percentage leases vs buying? Furthermore what in the world does one month, when you know they're pushing lease dealer more heavily, have to do with what normally goes on all year? Very hollow to try and present this data as the big picture! ALL brands make a year-end rush on lease deals every year! Lexus' "December to Remember" helped them sell over 35K cars in one month! Let me guess most of those buyers bought with cash right?
 
Unless you have something that shows the breakout for each brand and what the percentage is for buying vs leasing you're really just wasting time and space with all the dealership testimonials.
 
M

#12769 of 24723 Re: The LS460 does NOT look like a BMW 7-Series!! [merc1] by brightness04

Jan 10, 2006 (2:23 am)

Replying to: merc1 (Jan 10, 2006 1:57 am)
Please, avoid offensive words like "spin" and "BS." Like host Pat repeated said, content-free personal attacks do not add weight to your argument. . . frankly, we all deserve better treatment from each other than that.
 
The difference between LS and Camry in the rear-end pictures that you provided is much more pronounced than the difference the front quarter view of the new S-class vs. Ford Focus. The reason why I did not bother with refuting your assertion about the similarity was quite simple: the difference in the lines are quite pronounced . . . and more to the point, belittling Lexus based on alleged styling similarity to a less expensive car is a futile exercise, considering what the new S-class looks like . . . it's simply not a path an MB-lover would want to go down on.
 
STYLING is the "criteria".
 
Interesting. . . the last time I checked, these are carmakers, not coach builders. Also, I don't exactly recall IS ever looking like 3 series anyway, so why did you accuse IS of copying 3?
 
I never thought German engineering is all about styling . . . how about some substance? like MB "copying" everyone else going DOHC with variable valve-timing after misleading their faithful with obsolete SOHC tri-valve for nearly a decade? If you are really hung up on styling, how about BMW "copying" those kidney grills from Pontiac (Pontiac had them when BMW was building motorcycles and tricycles). Not that I'd want to seriously advance those claims, mind you, as they'd be just as pointless as accusing Lexus of "copying" others. If it is not patented or copyrighted, it's free game; that's been the case in the automobil industry since the very beginning.
 
Before MB acquisition, AMG was about as relevent as Brabus (which is to say, it is quite irrelevent in the grand scheme of things). MB's buy-out and subsequent investment into this in-house tuner division was very much a chapter taken from BMW's sucess with M division, just like Audi's expansion of S, Ford's SVT, Cadillac's V . . . etc.. It's simply fair game, market sucess finds competitors . . . just as, I'm sure, Toyota's success with hybrids will find many "copiers" too (Porsche, BMW, MB and GM are all on the record of planning on it). There is nothing insideous or shameful about it. That's how the industry works.

#12770 of 24723 Re: Percentage leased... [merc1] by brightness04

Jan 10, 2006 (2:37 am)

Replying to: merc1 (Jan 10, 2006 2:03 am)
but what does this one dealership have to do with the brand and what percentage leases vs buying?
 
It's called random sampling. . . there is no reason to believe people in that particular area is more fond of leasing than people in other regions. Buyers every where is faced with the same set of math: some manufacturers are offering far superior deals through leasing than buying; similar deals not being offered by banks is a good indication of book cooking.
 
Furthermore what in the world does one month, when you know they're pushing lease dealer more heavily, have to do with what normally goes on all year?
 
December happens to be the biggest sales month, by far, for MB, perhaps? You are more than welcome to dig up some numbers to support Scott's guestimate of 50/50; my guess is 70/30 if not more lop-sided, and I have the dealership data to back me up.
 
Lexus' "December to Remember" helped them sell over 35K cars in one month! Let me guess most of those buyers bought with cash right?
 
Whether they pay cash is not nearly as relevent as whether they take out loan vs. lease. A loan makes the sales price relevent; a lease makes the nominal sales price irrelevent because actual payment is heavily influenced by residual (which the manufacturer's captive finance arm will have to eat down the road). The lease price for ES330 in December was $420/mo. That compared to $299/mo for C230, $369/mo for 325i, $439 for 525i and $480/mo for E320. That should give us some idea how much these cars are really worth in the market place.

#12771 of 24723 Re: The LS460 does NOT look like a BMW 7-Series!! [brightness04] by merc1

Jan 10, 2006 (2:43 am)

Replying to: brightness04 (Jan 10, 2006 2:23 am)
The difference between LS and Camry in the rear-end pictures that you provided is much more pronounced than the difference the front quarter view of the new S-class vs. Ford Focus. The reason why I did not bother with refuting your assertion about the similarity was quite simple: the difference in the lines are quite pronounced . . . and more to the point, belittling Lexus based on alleged styling similarity to a less expensive car is a futile exercise, considering what the new S-class looks like . . . it's simply not a path an MB-lover would want to go down on.
 
Yeah ok, keep believing that. Pictures don't lie and you can't uh.....tell me otherwise looking at them. Funny how you are able to see the different pronounced difference between two cars by the same company, but you don't any difference between a Ford and a Mercedes? The truth about the LS460 must really hurt to have to come up with something like that.
 
Interesting. . . the last time I checked, these are carmakers, not coach builders. Also, I don't exactly recall IS ever looking like 3 series anyway, so why did you accuse IS of copying 3?
 
I can't use the word "spin" but what do you call this? Honestly, I mentioned the LS and how it always strived to look like the S-Class up until now and you come back with a comparison about the 3-Series and the IS? That speaks for itself. Dodging the issue we'll call it.
 
I never thought German engineering is all about styling . . . how about some substance? like MB "copying" everyone else going DOHC with variable valve-timing after misleading their faithful with obsolete SOHC tri-valve for nearly a decade?
 
Gee, I didn't think you could copy something that you did previously. That’s a new (ridiculous) one on me. Who said that "German Engineering" was all styling? Where did anyone ever say this? You asked what the "criteria" was for calling something a "copy" and you got "German engineering is about styling" from that? Ok.
 
If you are really hung up on styling, how about BMW "copying" those kidney grills from Pontiac (Pontiac had them when BMW was building motorcycles and tricycles).
 
Oh believe me, BMW has taken their share of flack about this very thing. Difference is BMW and Pontiac aren't direct competitors and no one is going to confuse the two like one could confuse the Lexus LS430 for W140 S-Class.
 
There is a big difference between two cars looking similar by coincidence...especially when those cars aren't competitors vs. Lexus coping nearly entire bodies in white of previous Mercedes designs. I know you know the difference, but you choose to make excuse about it being an industry-wide trend when it is anything but for direct competitors to copy each other so closely in design (not features).
 
If it is not patented or copyrighted, it's free game; that's been the case in the automobile industry since the very beginning.
 
Apparently. Toyota obviously lives by this precept.
 
Before MB acquisition, AMG was about as relevant as Brabus (which is to say, it is quite irrelevant in the grand scheme of things). MB's buy-out and subsequent investment into this in-house tuner division was very much a chapter taken from BMW's success with M division, just like Audi's expansion of S, Ford's SVT, Cadillac's V . . . etc.. It's simply fair game, market success finds competitors . . . just as, I'm sure, Toyota's success with hybrids will find many "copiers" too (Porsche, BMW, MB and GM are all on the record of planning on it). There is nothing insidious or shameful about it. That's how the industry works.
 
Again, I just stated that this from a business point of view is most likely correct, but we were talking about cars...you know the things they build? The fact remains that BMW's Motorsport division and Mercedes' AMG don't build copies of each others CARS, which was my point. You brought all this largely irrelevant stuff about AMG and M to begin with!
 
It most certainly is something “insidious and shameful” making a flagship car such a blatant copy of a competitor’s car for years and years! It makes the brand seem like a big wannabe not to mention cheap.
 
For the last time I'm talking about design/styling, not technology/engines/peformance. Styling and design doesn't have to be copied in order to compete!
 
M

#12772 of 24723 Re: Percentage leased... [brightness04] by merc1

Jan 10, 2006 (2:45 am)

Replying to: brightness04 (Jan 10, 2006 2:37 am)
Like I said before you can post details about leases forever, but without the data for the brand as a whole it is meaningless, especially pointing at one dealer and/or month as overall indicator.
 
I don't know what the ratio is overall for the brands which is why I asked for the data since everyone here (not just you) seems to know what the ratio is.
 
Random sampling? Yeah we have a lot of that going on here for the purpose of painting the worst possible picture of the opposing brand.
 
M

#12773 of 24723 Re: The LS460 does NOT look like a BMW 7-Series!! [merc1] by brightness04

Jan 10, 2006 (3:18 am)

Replying to: merc1 (Jan 10, 2006 2:43 am)
Funny how you are able to see the different pronounced difference between two cars by the same company, but you don't any difference between a Ford and a Mercedes? Yeah ok, makes lots of sense.
 
What are you saying? That cars from the same company should look alike? I thought you were decrying two products from Toyota/Lexus look alike . . . what gives? I will ignore the sacastic venom in your post, and try to respond with a straight face: the rear ends of Camry and LS460 are actually very different:
1. the tail light lenses have completely different shapes
2. Camry has wide L-shaped clear lenses, whereas LS has thin lines . . . how more different can they get?
3. LS trunk line side creases go up whereas that of the Cambry go downward
4. trunk lid chrome on the LS, absent on the Camry
5. bumper-integrated dual exhaust on LS, absent on Camry
6. rear roof antenna vs. rear-window diversity antenna
7. shape and proportion of the license plate recense area; one is much more flat than the other
8. wrap-around rear bumper outline
9. center brake light, LS has it on the roof, and Camry has it at the bottom of the rear window
 
Frankly, I can't see how anyone can confuse the two. Now for comparison, get the rear view of current E class vs. that of the Accord:
1. same location and shape for center braking light
2. similarly shaped triangular side real clusers
3. similar trunk lid shape and chrome
The front quarter view of S class was even more uncannily similar to Focus. Would I care about either similarities, if I were in the market for an E or S? Probably not, but if you are really into styling uniqueness, you may want to know . . .
 
Difference is BMW and Pontiac aren't direct competitors and no one is going to confuse the two like one could confuse the Lexus LS430 for W140 S-Class.
 
Considering Pontiac being the sporting brand of GM, a case can actually be made that much of Pontiac business was killed off by younsters flocking to BMW out of college. LS430 was much less angular than W140. Besides, W140 was no longer being made or sold when LS430. LS430 was simply making cars in the image of traditional luxury car; frankly, I think it looks more like half way between Caddy Deville and Seville, with a dash of rounder lines of Lincoln tossed in; the three are certainly much more relevent than the angular designs of W140 with its musty 80's boxy lines.
 
but for direct competitors to copy each other so closely in design (not features).
 
That must be why S-class interior looks like it's taken out of a 7 series.
 
Again, I just stated that this from a business point of view is most likely correct, but we were talking about cars... You brought all this largely irrelevant stuff about AMG and M to begin with!
 
It was brought up in response to your accusation that Lexus IS was a copy of BMW 3. The two cases are so similar it's not even funny (following successful business models from BMW but offering cars that are different from BMW's but compete in the roughly same market segment). I want to know exactly how you came to the conclusion that IS was copying 3 but AMG was not copying M. What are the objective criteria? Obviously not styling like you claimed earlier.

#12774 of 24723 Re: Percentage leased... [merc1] by brightness04

Jan 10, 2006 (3:22 am)

Replying to: merc1 (Jan 10, 2006 2:45 am)
Random sampling? Yeah we have a lot of that going on here for the purpose of painting the worst possible picture of the opposing brand.
 
Random sampling as the technical term in statistics, not "random noise" as you might be thinking of. The sampling was done by the news organization, not me; and the article featured a proud BMW X3 owner, so it was not exactly anti-BMW.
 
We actually have the lease prices for the various cars . . . so unless someone can make the point that Lexus was subsidizing loans much more than leases, we can safety use the lease prices for comparison purpose.

#12775 of 24723 Re: The LS460 does NOT look like a BMW 7-Series!! [brightness04] by merc1

Jan 10, 2006 (3:24 am)

Replying to: brightness04 (Jan 10, 2006 3:18 am)
What are you saying? That cars from the same company should look alike? I thought you were decrying two products from Toyota/Lexus look alike . . . what gives? I will ignore the sacastic venom in your post, and try to respond with a straight face: the rear ends of Camry and LS460 are actually very different:
1. the tail light lenses have completely different shapes
2. Camry has wide L-shaped clear lenses, whereas LS has thin lines . . . how more different can they get?
3. LS trunk line side creases go up whereas that of the Cambry go downward
4. trunk lid chrome on the LS, absent on the Camry
5. bumper-integrated dual exhaust on LS, absent on Camry
6. rear roof antenna vs. rear-window diversity antenna
7. shape and proportion of the license plate recense area; one is much more flat than the other
8. wrap-around rear bumper outline
9. center brake light, LS has it on the roof, and Camry has it at the bottom of the rear window
 
Yet at the end of all that, you still get to very similar looking cars! You shouldn't have to go over the details with fine tooth comb to be able to see and/or point out the differences. The taillight lenses and the shape of the license plate holders? Yet their rears look nearly identical!
 
4. trunk lid chrome on the LS, absent on the Camry
 
This one I find particularly interesting. So they added some chrome to the LS460. Really unique.
 
All of those things are pointless when you see the two cars together and most people aren't going (and shouldn't have to) look at all that to tell the difference between a Lexus flagship and Camry.
 
That must be why S-class interior looks like it's taken out of a 7 series.
 
Can't argue with that one, the vents and postion of the comand controller are straight lift-outs of the 7-Series.
 
You can forget trying to every convince me that the LS430 didn't look like a copy of the W140 S-Class. Totally ridiculous to even argue that one.
 
It was brought up in response to your accusation that Lexus IS was a copy of BMW 3. The two cases are so similar it's not even funny (following successful business models from BMW but offering cars that are different from BMW's but compete in the roughly same market segment). I want to know exactly how you came to the conclusion that IS was copying 3 but AMG was not copying M. What are the objective criteria? Obviously not styling like you claimed earlier.
 
  Makes no sense to me. What does a 3-Series and IS350 have to do with AMG and Motorsport? Nothing.
 
M

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