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Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
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Replying to: merc1 (Jan 08, 2006 10:32 pm) In my opinion, looking at the LS460L, rolls royce phantom and maybach better be prepared as the LS has all what they have and even more. In a direct comparison LS will handily beat phantom and maybach be it refinement, luxury, technology, craftsmanship, quiteness etc. |
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Replying to: brightness04 (Jan 08, 2006 10:48 pm) All spin and bs not really worth responding to. The IS and GS you say - "were performance extensions of ES and RX mainstream cars". Dude that is so ridiculous it doesn't warrant a response. Totally ridiculous. Is that your way of backtracking what you said earlier?? But you are the one spreading the "rumors," whether that rumor has any substance or not. No, it was a way of clearing up what I said earlier, since you didn't seem to grasp it. Secondly, anything I've said about upcoming products can be readily found in the press and I didn't pass them off as fact, only speculation. In stark constrast to how most Lexus fans report things. AMG is obviously an MB attempt to copy the success BMW's M division. They compete for the similar clientelles; just look at the numerous comparos. Your argument splitting hair about AMG using AMG and force-induction therefore it's not copying M division is laughable . . . by that logic, Lexus never copied anyone because it packed more electronics, electronics that actually worked, into their cars. Get real. Bull, plain and simple. AMG goes back to 1967 and BMW's M wasn't even a matter of discussion back then. AMG has always been about hp more than outright handling like M. The original AMG "Hammer" proves this. It wasn't a M5 competitors on the track, but would inhale it on the straights. More importantly, my point about copying was that AMG isn't trying to build a BMW in either function or look like LEXUS DID with Mercedes in the past or Lexus now. Big difference. You get real and realize that Lexus is all about chasing whomever they think is hot at the moment, that being BMW now in their eyes. Every car add electronics, not just Lexus. Every car DOES NOT however have to look like their most direct competitor. Adding the electronics bs to your post was only more of the same spin as before. There is no point for anyone else to make an LS except for Lexus; nor anyone to make an S class except MB; nor anyone to make a 7 except for BMW. However, if you can make a better LS than Lexus, or better S than MB, or better 7 than BMW, and still be able to sell with a competitive value proposition, you have a business plan. The reality is that, nobody in their right mind dares to even try making a better LS than Lexus. The same can not be said of S (or CLS, like you said ealier). What a pile of contradiction. The LS started out as a copy in the first place! Have you forgotten this? For MB to set out to make LS they'd only be copying SOME of their own previous work and BMW and the rest aren't interested in doing so because a car like the LS doesn't suite the profile of BMW, Jaguar or Audi. They aren't trying because they don't need or have to, not because they couldn't. How much twisting can you do with this ridiculous theory? M
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Replying to: samstayton (Jan 08, 2006 10:52 pm) This is grand reaching at best, only in a Lexus induced fantasy. M
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Replying to: merc1 (Jan 08, 2006 11:02 pm)
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Replying to: lexusguy (Jan 08, 2006 11:04 pm) I didn't think there would be. In all honestly I don't see what is so different about the LS460's interior compared to the IS or GS. Its the same theme with more buttons? The rear seats and legroom are the biggest differences compared to the current LS430 IMO just looking at the pics. M |
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Replying to: merc1 (Jan 08, 2006 11:01 pm) Posting a content-free response like that, and you call my post "spin and bs"?? What exactly is MB and BMW's competitor to ES330 if it is not 325i, 525i, C240/280 and E320? Those account for the bulk of 3/5/C/E sales just like ES and RX accounting for the bulk of entry-price and mid-size sedan and wagon sales for Lexus. Bull, plain and simple. AMG goes back to 1967 and BMW's M wasn't even a matter of discussion back then. AMG as an independent shop was a very different animal from AMG under MB ownership. AMG as an independent shop was little different from Brabus from a marketting point of view . . . as you can see, nobody really cares about what Brabus offers in the last few thousand posts. MB's acquisition of AMG was a direct response to BMW M's success. Adding horsepower and adding torque is nothing more than what carmakers do since the late 19th century; at least adding electronics was new since the 1960's. All this talk about Lexus copying others are just old claptrap nonsense from sore losers. Carmakers copy from each other all the time, since the day the wheel was invented. Lexus does not set out to copy leaders; they learn the success of leaders, and set out to overtake leadership. That's something MB is really terrible at. Look at MB's R class, 203" vehicle length but only 82 cu.ft interior space. Apparently the company does not even deign to learn from its own Chrysler division. Ironicly, it was a famous German (Otto von Bismarck) once said that, "only fools learn from their own mistakes . . . smart people learn from those of others." Lexus learn from others whereas MB is bent on relearning everything at its own expense.
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Replying to: brightness04 (Jan 08, 2006 11:28 pm) More of the same. The ES is a fwd, blue-hair vehicle. Nobody else makes anything like it anymore. The E and 5-Series models cost way more than the C and 3-Series and they aren't the same car to begin with. BMW and MB don't make a vehicle that targets the ES330! MB's acquisition of AMG was a direct response to BMW M's success. See how you spin things out of context? Nobody said anything about how, why or when Mercedes bought out AMG. The topic of discussion was about copying, which AMG doesn't do when it comes to BMW's M when it comes to the cars they produce. Period. If they did Mercedes would be offering manual trannies and they surely wouldn't be making an AMG version of an SUV or crossover vehicle. The topic was about the cars, not why Mercedes bought AMG. All this talk about Lexus copying others are just old claptrap nonsense from sore losers. Carmakers copy from each other all the time, since the day the wheel was invented. Lexus does not set out to copy leaders; they learn the success of leaders, and set out to overtake leadership. That's something MB is really terrible at. Look at MB's R class, 203" vehicle length but only 82 cu.ft interior space. Apparently the company does not even deign to learn from its own Chrysler division. All this spin and denial about Lexus copies from the market leaders is just more of the same in the way of excuses for people who can't accept the fact that Lexus learns from, but can't help copy from also, from those same leaders. All this BS about "core competence", "Lexus ran out of staff" (!) and lumping sales of completely different vehicles are definitiely signs of sore losers who can't accpet the fact that Lexus hasn't hit a home run everytime out the gate. Nothing more than grand excuse making at its very, ill-concieved best. The part about Lexus running out of staff is the most ridiculous thing I have read on here since reading how the S600/760Li aren't luxury cars. Brabus? Most here don't care about or grasp the meaning of AMG or M type cars so bringing up an even more extreme outfit like Brabus would be utterly pointless to say the least. M
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Replying to: merc1 (Jan 08, 2006 11:41 pm) All this BS about "core competence", "Lexus ran out of staff" (!) and lumping sales of completely different vehicles are definitiely signs of sore losers who can't accpet the fact that Lexus hasn't hit a home run everytime out the gate. Nothing more than grand excuse making at its very, ill-concieved best. The part about Lexus running out of staff is the most ridiculous thing I have read on here since reading how the S600/760Li aren't luxury cars. BS, copycat, ultimate follower, spin, hype, sore losers, blah blah.... Geez.. Is this your idea of a debate ? Just when we expect you to come back with some real good story about the show, all you do is drag the quality of this forum down with rhetorics. Its 2006, and we all gotta turn a new leaf... Tone down rhetorics and put downs. Doesn't advance the debate. Have I said this before or what ??? Oh, wrt the new LS460, so far I have stayed on the sidelines reading everything before commenting. I wanted to read many opinions and see lots of pictures. Appears that overall, MORE people like it than not. That is good. Me, I got my check in hand now. My search for a replacement for my '99 LS is over already. The newly styled LS460 SWB with its 380bhp, mid-20 mpg, 8-speed tranny, auto park, smart card, 7.1 DTS 19-speaker ML, 8GB of HD space for 4000 songs, etc.. etc... has me won over. Another car that should give the Germans fits... And the class redefined all over again. Especially, if the $3K lift of base price over 2006 LS430 rumor turns out to be true. Can the 335hp S450 touch the LS460 ? I don't think so. Can the 382 S550 touch the LS460 ? Yup. But it will be a battle indeed. The LS will continue to outsell the S-class again, only this time, the sales gap will grow even larger. My prediction... What's yours ?
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Replying to: oac (Jan 09, 2006 1:10 am) Uh...saying that Lexus ran out of staff and couldn't update one of their cars is BS, plain and simple. Sorry if you can't accept the truth. No this isn't my idea of a debate. In a reasonable debate people bring facts to the table, not wild speculation about car companies running out of staff and excuses about "core competence". Lastly, why don't you real ALL the posts on the thread and see where "sore loser" came from. Wasn't me. You seem to have nicely ignored the facts, as usual. Guy, read all the posts before telling me to do anything. M |
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