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Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24697 messages, Last post on Nov 28, 2009 at 3:09 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
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Replying to: merc1 (Jan 08, 2006 9:36 pm) Very convincing argument . . . not! The simple facts remains that those cars were failures until new versions arrived during 2005. So are you done or not done?? You are rebutting your first paragraph with your second paragraph in the same post now? Previous generation IS and GS did very well in their first years, far more than 14k units sold for each of them. The European brands all have their own heritage and brand identity in spades, enough not to go chasing and building blank copy of each other's cars, thats why. Didn't you say Jaguar and others were trying to make copies and competitions to CLS?? How many times do you intend on debunking yourself in a single post? Europeans copy each other's designs and marketting approaches all the time. Do you think both MB and BMW got "louder" in their designs since the late 90's, deviating from their conservative roots one after another by accident? expanding into smaller and less expensive cars by accident? AMG vs. M vs. S by accident? Come on, get real! They do not copy Lexus for a very simple reason: they can not out-do Lexus in its own game. The way it's going, frankly, LS may compete against the likes of Maybach, Bentley and Rolls-Royce in the next generation or so . . . something that I predicted half a decade ago! Besides what European or even American luxury car make (besides maybe Lincolin) is going to purposely set out to build an ugly, poor handling land yacht . . . Maybach, Bentley and Rolls-Royce. None of them are great handling machines. Handling matters when one is buying a $15k Eclipse, but not when one is getting a high end luxury car to be driven by a chauffer. The owner would rather be in a yacht or a private jet if not for the necessity for wheels.
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Replying to: merc1 (Jan 08, 2006 10:07 pm) So now Lexus not following BMW example of offering a stick is used as evidence of following?? Great logic indeed.
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Replying to: brightness04 (Jan 08, 2006 10:22 pm) No, the 306hp, stiff ride and smallish interior are. M
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Replying to: merc1 (Jan 08, 2006 10:23 pm) Say what?? What non-M standard BMW 3 series has 300+ horsepower? Isn't every car company in the business of packing more horsepowers? Since like, the days of horse-drawn carriages! Do Germans have a patent on using more than one horse to draw carriage on Roman roads too?? does BMW have patent on stiff ride and small interior too?? The last time I checked, BMW 3 series is getting bigger in size and getting softer in ride quality. In fact, IS300 was a lot harder riding than E46 and E90.
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Replying to: brightness04 (Jan 08, 2006 10:19 pm) Which still didn't amount to beating their competitors from BMW and Mercedes. Period. Oh, let me guess, Lexus' staff quit and the production lines couldn't handle any more output. Pluhlease. Didn't you say Jaguar and others were trying to make copies and competitions to CLS?? How many times do you intend to debunk yourself in a single post? Europeans copy each other's designs and marketting approaches all the time. Do you think both MB and BMW got "louder" in their designs since the late 90's, deviating from their conservative roots one after another by accident? expanding into smaller and less expensive cars by accident? AMG vs. M vs. S by accident? Come on, get real! They do not copy Lexus for a very simple reason: they can not out-do Lexus in its own game. The way it's going, frankly, LS may compete against the likes of Maybach, Bentley and Rolls-Royce in the next generation or so . . . something that I predicted half a decade ago! Again, more of the same. The CLS competitors are rumored and upcoming, not running around like current Lexus copies are. Secondly, again, for the second time none of these brands are copying each other like Lexus copied Mercedes and now is trying to be like BMW now. Period. One car from Mercedes that attempts to be "pretty" like a Jaguar is a far cry from making their flagship cars like the S, SL or E like a car from Jaguar, BMW, Audi or anyone else. AMG vs M? What does that have to do with anything? Nothing. AMG cars aren't even like M cars beyond hp and price. AMG goes for more luxury with an automatic and forced induction torque monster engines. M goes for manuals/SMGs and high revs and shaper handling, over MB's Airmatic influenced ride comfort. Maybach, Bentley and Rolls-Royce. None of them are great handling machines. Handling matters when one is buying a $15k Eclipse, but not when one is getting a high end luxury car to be driven by a chauffer. The owner would rather be in a yacht or a private jet if not for the necessity for wheels. None of these cars compete in this space so why bring them up? Maybe I should have been more specific so you won't try to divert attention away from the brands in question by bringing up ones that irrelevant to this conversation. Of course those cars about ride over handling. Problem is you just skirted over the issue when it comes someone trying to build an Lexus LS. NO ONE IS. Lexus spends their time trying to build a Mercedes S-Class and now (according to some, not necessarily me) a 7-Series. M
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Replying to: brightness04 (Jan 08, 2006 10:27 pm) Yeah, but in the class of the 3-Series, Lexus tried to compenstate for not having a stick by overshooting the hp of everyone else, only to wind up second to the 3-Series in every comparo so far. M
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Replying to: merc1 (Jan 08, 2006 10:32 pm) Neither IS nor GS were intended to beat 3, 5, C or E on their own. IS and GS were performance extensions of ES and RX mainstream cars. ES and RX competed against 325, 525, C240, C280, E320 and their wagon variants; IS and GS competed against 330i, 530i, 545i, C320, and E500. If anything, one might make the argument that BMW and MB copy each other's product lineups, replete with almost one-on-one sedan and wagon offerings, whereas Lexus took quite a different route. The CLS competitors are rumored and upcoming, Is that your way of backtracking what you said earlier?? But you are the one spreading the "rumors," whether that rumor has any substance or not. AMG vs M? What does that have to do with anything? AMG is obviously an MB attempt to copy the success BMW's M division. They compete for the similar clientelles; just look at the numerous comparos. Your argument splitting hair about AMG using AMG and force-induction therefore it's not copying M division is laughable . . . by that logic, Lexus never copied anyone because it packed more electronics, electronics that actually worked, into their cars. Get real. None of these cars compete in this space so why bring them up? Of course these cars about ride over handling. In case you did not notice, that's the direction LS is headed. Much of S class sales worldwide are to fleets; the drivers are often not owners Problem is you just skirted over the issue when it comes someone trying to build an Lexus LS. NO ONE IS. Lexus spends their time trying to build a Mercedes S-Class and now (according to some, not necessarily me) a 7-Series. There is no point for anyone else to make an LS except for Lexus; nor anyone to make an S class except MB; nor anyone to make a 7 except for BMW. However, if you can make a better LS than Lexus, or better S than MB, or better 7 than BMW, and still be able to sell with a competitive value proposition, you have a business plan. The reality is that, nobody in their right mind dares to even try making a better LS than Lexus. The same can not be said of S (or CLS, like you said ealier).
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Replying to: merc1 (Jan 08, 2006 10:33 pm) How does emphasizing Lexus' different transmission offering and horsepower output help your argument that Lexus was copying BMW?? |
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Replying to: merc1 (Jan 08, 2006 10:32 pm) In my opinion, looking at the LS460L, rolls royce phantom and maybach better be prepared as the LS has all what they have and even more. In a direct comparison LS will handily beat phantom and maybach be it refinement, luxury, technology, craftsmanship, quiteness etc. |
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