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Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
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Replying to: ljflx (Jan 07, 2006 9:27 pm) True, they mised the SUV party for sure. Actually Mercedes was first to offer one, but the design wasn't what the market wanted. True, but this wasn't in debate. M
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Replying to: oac (Jan 07, 2006 9:23 pm) Saw an LS430, ES330 and SC430 all such stylish vehicles. Not! Let me see if I have this right. It is wrong for Mercedes to launch a new full size SUV, but when Lexus gets around to replacing the ancient LX470 with an even bigger vehicle they'll be doing the right thing I suppose? Right? M |
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Replying to: tagman (Jan 07, 2006 9:31 pm) Definitely, but I have been caught driving there in a blizzard before so... Hey, M1, you mentioned that Jaguar (and others) are lined up to offer their versions of the CLS. What exactly are you referring to that Jaguar is doing in response to the CLS? I'm drawing a blank here. In the Feb issue of Automobile Magazine they're saying that the next XJ (2009) will quit trying to compete with the S/LS/A8/7 and go for the CLS and Quattroporte. Not sure how sound of a business plan that will be, but its only fair since the CLS was reportedly designed to add some Jaguar-like flair to the Mercedes lineup. M |
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Replying to: brightness04 (Jan 07, 2006 9:32 pm) The simple facts remains that those cars were failures until new versions arrived during 2005. You can spin the aimless production capacity theory forever and it won't change anything. You can spin the excuses for why they flopped all day long also, won't change squat either. All this "core competence" and "they didn't up them" is Lexus' fault not anyone elses. Again, feel free to spin this as much as you like! Yada yada on glorious history 100 years ago; too bad it doesn't sell cars to those who can actually afford to buy them. Why other manufacturers try to build a CLS competitor but not an LS competitor? Isn't the answer obvious? Other manufacturers think they can beat MB at its own game but no chance at beating Lexus. Duh! It's relatively cheap and easy to "invent a new segment" but really hard to make impeccable cars that people really want and sell them at competitive prices; that's a game few excell at, and Lexus happens to be one of the masters. This makes more sense than ever before. Now we know who can and who can't afford a Mercedes and we now know who is buying them. Stupendous! No one is trying to build a LS430 because the LS started out as the grandest copycat car of them all. The European brands all have their own heritage and brand identity in spades, enough not to go chasing and building blank copy of each other's cars, thats why. Besides what European or even American luxury car make (besides maybe Lincolin) is going to purposely set out to build an ugly, poor handling land yacht like the current LS430? None. Now I'm reading where you think Lexus ran out of staff so they couldn't update the previous GS? OMG, WHAT BS! M
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Replying to: oac (Jan 08, 2006 1:05 am) No, actually I was replying to a previous post. Secondly, all your off-base assumptions and continued peadaling of hype about MB won't stop them from turning things around either. Remember that next time you post a story about some piece of MB tech not working, without having read the whole article first. Talking of copying, I wonder how many German auto companies would love to have the TPS in their factories, eh ???? Maybe no one thinks the TPS is such a great system, eh ??? Who would have thunk it that Lexus could make such quality cars ? No one is copying Lexus' customer service, build quality, reliable automobiles, seamless integration of electronics, 8-speed tranny, hybrid synergy system, TPS, etc. Totally unimportant in the car business, eh ? Alrighty.... let's move on... See here is where you make no sense to me. We were talking about copying and yet you bring up what other makes would like to have in their factories. Don't you think that by now anyone who wanted to use TPS would have approached Toyota by now, either publically or behind the scenes? Sure Toyota is the best there is at lean, quality production. You'd better hope they don't get arrogant like GM and wind up exposing their rear flank to the Koreans and Chinese. Since you implied something about Lexus' 8-speed tranny like someone is already coping it? I'd really like to know who is, since you seem to imply that someone is. WHO? Total ridiculousness to sit there and say that others are copying Lexus' build quality and reliability when these are things that every car built in the world today strives to achieve. Toyota didn't event these things, they've only perfected it in the modern era, and Audi ain't trying to copy squat from Toyota in the way of build quality either. One look at one and you'll see why if don't have Lexus blinders on. M |
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Replying to: tagman (Jan 08, 2006 8:07 pm) |
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Replying to: ljflx (Jan 08, 2006 8:35 am) I don't see how you could think that Lexus isn't chasing anyone. They are clearly chasing BMW from top to bottom with designs to match. Clearly they're trying to be sportier now. You don't see BMW, Mercedes and Audi chasing Lexus by mentioning them in every press release or trying to make their cars more like a Lexus. Now its all a marketing spin when just 8-12 months ago everything Danny Clemets said was literally taken as gospel by every Lexus fan on this board including yourself. The entire luxury car world was to be crushed according to you and Oac. Lexus is the biggest follower in the luxury car market. One minute (well actually 14+ years) it was Mercedes, now its BMW. Sure they've come to represent certain things like reliability, quality and quietness on their own, but they still have Germancar envy big time, now its BMW. The IS350 is a direct wannabe 3-Series, as was supposed to be the GS. Now some are saying the new LS460 (stunning technology BTW) looks like BMW work also, not sure about that yet. M |
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Replying to: blckislandguy (Jan 08, 2006 8:36 pm) |
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Replying to: designman (Jan 08, 2006 10:31 am) No it came to me mid-post.  You're correct as can be about the IS350 and its hp end-run attempt at a 3-Series, but without a proper stick. No dice. Yet Lexus isnt following anyone? Sheer denial. M
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Replying to: merc1 (Jan 08, 2006 9:36 pm) Very convincing argument . . . not! The simple facts remains that those cars were failures until new versions arrived during 2005. So are you done or not done?? You are rebutting your first paragraph with your second paragraph in the same post now? Previous generation IS and GS did very well in their first years, far more than 14k units sold for each of them. The European brands all have their own heritage and brand identity in spades, enough not to go chasing and building blank copy of each other's cars, thats why. Didn't you say Jaguar and others were trying to make copies and competitions to CLS?? How many times do you intend on debunking yourself in a single post? Europeans copy each other's designs and marketting approaches all the time. Do you think both MB and BMW got "louder" in their designs since the late 90's, deviating from their conservative roots one after another by accident? expanding into smaller and less expensive cars by accident? AMG vs. M vs. S by accident? Come on, get real! They do not copy Lexus for a very simple reason: they can not out-do Lexus in its own game. The way it's going, frankly, LS may compete against the likes of Maybach, Bentley and Rolls-Royce in the next generation or so . . . something that I predicted half a decade ago! Besides what European or even American luxury car make (besides maybe Lincolin) is going to purposely set out to build an ugly, poor handling land yacht . . . Maybach, Bentley and Rolls-Royce. None of them are great handling machines. Handling matters when one is buying a $15k Eclipse, but not when one is getting a high end luxury car to be driven by a chauffer. The owner would rather be in a yacht or a private jet if not for the necessity for wheels.
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