Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#12607 of 24726 Re: 2005 sales [merc1]
Jan 08, 2006 (1:05 am)
Well considering Mercedes the oldest carmaker around and new segments don't come along that often I'd say they've done pretty well to inpsire the creation of whole brands of synthetic cars with a copycat flagship to go along with it. Mercedes has proven itself time and time again over the years. Question is what segment has Lexus conqured? Lexus is the biggest wannabe in the automotive world, now switching their envy from Mercedes to BMW. I don't see anyone lining up to build a GS,LS,IS or ES. I do see Lexus trying to build a 3-Series, 5-Series, S-Class (in the past come 2007). I do see Jaguar, Porsche, and VW linig up to build a CLS competitor, not a GS competitor or a LS competitor. All Lexus has conqured is quality and reliability surveys (important enough) and the SUV/high-end-sedan segment IF you want simply look at sales. Other than that they are are the ultimate following machine because the IS,GS,ES haven't conqured squat.
Merc1: You must have been writing this on your way out to Detroit, eh ? So much venom against Lexus..... Obviously, you habor a deep resentment towards Lexus' success over your vaunted German brand. That's OK... All the put-downs about Lexus isn't stopping its match towards increased market share, be it against MB or BMW.
Talking of copying, I wonder how many German auto companies would love to have the TPS in their factories, eh ???? Maybe no one thinks the TPS is such a great system, eh ??? Who would have thunk it that Lexus could make such quality cars ? No one is copying Lexus' customer service, build quality, reliable automobiles, seamless integration of electronics, 8-speed tranny, hybrid synergy system, TPS, etc. Totally unimportant in the car business, eh ? Alrighty.... let's move on...
Lexus having proven itself a worthy and dangerous competitor to MB, now turns its sight on BMW. Let's see how well Lexus does against BMW. Infiniti already puts a chink in the Bimmer's armor, and a combined Japanese assault on BMW may do more damage over time. I guess time will tell...
Enjoy your trip to Detroit. Go well. Let's hear from you at your earliest convenience. We will surely have lots to talk about in days, weeks, months to come.
#12608 of 24726 Re: 2005 sales [oac]
Jan 08, 2006 (4:01 am)
Actually, the ES sort of did conquer its segment, and now basically rules a class of one. It killed the I35, and also killed the old RL and forced the TL to morph into a sports sedan, so that it would no longer compete directly with the ES. No one is lining up to build an ES (other than perhaps Buick) because no one can touch it (see: Buick LaCrosse).
#12609 of 24726 Infiniti Has Done What?
Jan 08, 2006 (5:55 am)
I believe I have seen 3 M's on the road since its restyling.
Plenty of 5's though.
Looks like a microscopic chink in BMW's armor.
#12610 of 24726 Re: HELM board or what ??? [oac]
Jan 08, 2006 (8:04 am)
oac, good morning. Bitterness? . . . none at all! Sorry if it came off that way to you.
You pointed out that it was MY words that said the R is ugly. YES, absolutely. You will appreciate that I have made no point of defending the R just because it is a Mercedes. I do not like the R's exterior styling, and do not believe in this vehicle. At this point, I am quite firm on this and will not waffle just because it's a Benz.
The C-Coupe (not a H.E.L.M. vehicle in its own right) is another example of an ugly mistake by Mercedes, and it will not see the light of day after this last production run. I do give MB credit for making such a bold effort on the R as far as defining the segment (even if by the process of elimination!! ) but I do wonder sometimes what was was going on in those board meetings.
As far as the "burb" reference I made, I can see I did not get my point across. My reference to the Suburban was meant to use that vehicle to represent the category itself. I guess in my mind, the Expedition, Escalade, Navigator, Denali XL, LX470, are all part of the "burb" category, but in an upscale fashion of course, and the "burb" is simply the original "icon" for the "three-row large SUV's".
The GL, IMHO, will have a good shot at being the top dog in this category.
Yes, I am also anxious to learn more about the NAIAS featured vehicles. As I mentioned earlier, I am predicting success for the new S-Class, as well as the new LS. The differences between Mercedes and Lexus are more distinctive than ever, and I believe that will be positive for Mercedes (and Lexus, as well). I also think that Lexus is clearly chasing after BMW this time around, and as a result the real battle for Lexus will be with BMW.
All to be seen.
#12611 of 24726 Re: HELM board or what ??? [tagman]
Jan 08, 2006 (8:35 am)
In my opinion, Lexus isn't chasing anyone. They are setting their own pace and everything else is a marketing image change. If you are intending to change your image you do it with marketing and press releases and you hype. I'm really surprised people mis-interpret a marketing spin and expect word for word truths in everything that is said. MB is trying the same marketing spin by saying quality issues are behind them. All both companies are saying to me is that one is moving in the direction of higher performance and the other is at work addressing the quality issues. Same with BMW - are it's cars really the "ultimate" in driving? - key word is ultimate meaning there is nothing higher. Sure.
In the meantime here is a good story out of Business Week. Embedded in the article for Lexicans is a clear cut indicator that you will not see any i-drive derivatives in a Lexus. They see it as a complete distraction to the driver, as does Cadillac.
#12612 of 24726 Re: HELM board or what ??? [ljflx]
Jan 08, 2006 (8:58 am)
In my opinion, Lexus isn't chasing anyone. They are setting their own pace and everything else is a marketing image change. If you are intending to change your image you do it with marketing and press releases and you hype.
Do you believe that Lexus needs to change their image? Personally, I would never recommend to Lexus that they use "hype", as you put it. I am not clear as to your position here, but let me say this. Lexus has their own new models to shape their image. This is their BIGGEST weapon, particularly since they already have a positive "reputation" (as opposed to "image"). The Lexus "image" IS GOING TO SHIFT closer to BMW. This will be based upon their very own model line-up, not marketing hype. One good look at the designs of their newest vehicles tells all. As I said before, the Bimmers were already out there, and NOW you see the latest from Lexus showing HUGE similarities. It is OBVIOUS that they did not by some mere coincidence come up with such similar design lines.
In addidion, it is not by coincidence that the auto mags are already comping the Lexus vehicles against the Bimmers.
In my opinion, Lexus designers are snipers with powerful scopes. This time around they have BMW in the crosshairs.
#12613 of 24726 Re: HELM board or what ??? [tagman]
Jan 08, 2006 (9:51 am)
You see similarities in Lexus and BMW designs??
#12614 of 24726 Re: HELM board or what ??? [tagman]
Jan 08, 2006 (10:31 am)
The Lexus "image" IS GOING TO SHIFT closer to BMW. This will be based upon their very own model line-up, not marketing hype. One good look at the designs of their newest vehicles tells all. As I said before, the Bimmers were already out there, and NOW you see the latest from Lexus showing HUGE similarities. It is OBVIOUS that they did not by some mere coincidence come up with such similar design lines.
Iíd like to know what you are talking about. The LF-Sh bears a slight resemblance to the ES which preceded the 5 and was out at the same time as the 7. Both the ES and Camry are slab-sided so they werenít copying BMW.
The new BMWs show so much copying that itís ridiculous. For example, the concave shoulder on the 5 is a ripoff of the Lincoln LS. The Bangle butts come from Chrylser, Honda, Mazdas of years ago.
The rear of the LF-Sh not only resembles the ES but also the Mazda Millenia. The front stands on its own. BMWs are about a lot of scar-tissue surfacing, aka flame surfacing. There is no flame surfacing on new Lexuses.
Lexus is clearly trying to hitchhike onto 3-series dominance but they are not doing it with styling. Rather it is a performance appeal solely via horsepower. Let me know if you see LS advertising going after the 7-series with flames coming out of the road like they did with the IS. It ainít gonna happen. Is there enough of a 7-series market share for them to go after it? Lexus is coming into its own niche with the LS, some 17 years after being the Ultimate Following Machine. Heh, heh, that was great Merc. Iím surprised you didnít use that sooner. Or maybe you have?
The question is, will the new LS up the ante with handling like Mercedes did with the S. It says no here. In that regard it will be a little better than a Town Car. And it will need more than 20-inch wheels to do it. 7-series buyers want nothing to do with an LS. Itís like trying to mate cats and dogs.
#12615 of 24726 Re: HELM board or what ??? [ljflx]
Jan 08, 2006 (10:35 am)
Embedded in the article for Lexicans is a clear cut indicator that you will not see any i-drive derivatives in a Lexus. They see it as a complete distraction to the driver, as does Cadillac.
Good move. I like the Lexus touch screen. The Germans were always behind everyone with ergonomics. iDrive only perpetuates this. But if I can put up with the multiple stabs at BMW buttons and Tic-Tac Porsche buttons, I can put up with anything. That stuff is secondary to most German-performance-car buyers. It would be interesting to know how many 3-series buyers are going with iDrive vs no iDrive.
Ljflx... get back to that TV screen and keep an eye on your Giants. Tiki is awesome. So is Shockey... tough as nails.
#12616 of 24726 Re: HELM board or what ??? [designman]
Jan 08, 2006 (10:39 am)
Designman - I hate to admit ths but I'm a Jet fan first (thanks to Namath) and a Giants fan second. The Jets are the biggest and most mis-managed disaster in major city team sports history.