Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#12587 of 24726 Re: 2005 sales [brightness04]
Jan 07, 2006 (9:05 pm)
There's nothing wrong with comparing the production curve of any two car models. Just don't compare the first model year of one car with the winding down year of another, like what you were trying to do . . . that would be intellectually dishonest because we both know that cars sell much better in the early parts of its procution cycle.
Again, you brought up the comparo between the CLS and IS/GS. However there is something wrong with this comparo because you said that the IS and GS were successful if we're going by the 14K units the CLS sold. This is just that, dishonest because the CLS costs way more than a GS and nearly double the first generation IS. Secondly IN THEIR SEGMENTS the IS and GS didn't do squat in sales compared to their main competitors, BMW and Mercedes. The CLS doesn't really have an direct competitors.
It is just that, dishonest for you to leave out the other factors in the sales of these three totally different vehicles.
When was the last time MB newly conqured any market segment? 1970/80's displacing Cadillac?
Well considering Mercedes the oldest carmaker around and new segments don't come along that often I'd say they've done pretty well to inpsire the creation of whole brands of synthetic cars with a copycat flagship to go along with it. Mercedes has proven itself time and time again over the years. Question is what segment has Lexus conqured? Lexus is the biggest wannabe in the automotive world, now switching their envy from Mercedes to BMW. I don't see anyone lining up to build a GS,LS,IS or ES. I do see Lexus trying to build a 3-Series, 5-Series, S-Class (in the past come 2007). I do see Jaguar, Porsche, and VW linig up to build a CLS competitor, not a GS competitor or a LS competitor. All Lexus has conqured is quality and reliability surveys (important enough) and the SUV/high-end-sedan segment IF you want simply look at sales. Other than that they are are the ultimate following machine because the IS,GS,ES haven't conqured squat.
Like it or not Mercedes-Benz is still the trailblazer here. The CLS and R-Class success or not are new segments, one of which has a bunch of the competitors lining up to produce their version (CLS) and the other the jury is still out on.
#12588 of 24726 Re: My Prediction = Good News for Mercedes [tagman]
Jan 07, 2006 (9:08 pm)
I'm guessing you might take a short flight from Chicago to Detroit?
Oh no, the 4-hour drive is much more fun.
#12589 of 24726 Re: 2005 sales [dewey]
Jan 07, 2006 (9:10 pm)
That argument makes no sense whatsoever. The Lexus ES and IS are two different platforms that compete with different types of vehicles altogether.
What makes even less sense is your comparison of a Lexus ES with a BMW 5 series or a MB E . That is an argument not even worth responding to
I am out of here. Good night.
Exactly! Nothing but spinning gone out of control. I guess now I can lump CLK sales in with the C-Class and the CLS in the E-Class in order to jazz up the sales rhetoric. Funny how this lumping of the IS and ES helps out the previously non-existent sales of the IS just a few months ago. Lexus spinning and twisting at its best!
#12590 of 24726 HELM board or what ???
Jan 07, 2006 (9:23 pm)
Must be a slow weekend... All these talk about IS, GS, Prius, etc... on a HELM board ??
Despite the failures of the Gen1 IS, Gen1&2 GS to light a fire in their respective market sectors, Lexus increased market share YoY, until it became the #1 luxury auto maker in the NA market. Imagine if the IS and GS were important sector leaders, the margin of Lexus' success would have been enormous indeed. The truth is no company will have success in ALL its markets... So beating on the IS/GS pre 2005 is just a waste of time... This is history.
Saw the new R-class wagon today in person. What an ugly POS, sorry ! My daughter called it a *whale* and I couldn't agree more. And wrt a GL class, in the days of low demand for SUV ... timing couldn't be worse for MB thinking it can buy market share with land yatch SUVs in 2006 ? Who is in charge in Stuttgart these days ?
#12591 of 24726 Re: 2005 sales [merc1]
Jan 07, 2006 (9:27 pm)
"Well considering Mercedes the oldest carmaker around and new segments don't come along that often I'd say they've done pretty well"
I certainly don't want to get embroiled in this but MB and the Germans as a whole literally missed the biggest new segment in automotive history - SUV's. In fact because of this many here want to point out that only cars should be considered in a sales race even though we are still in a 50-50 market position. It shows you how silly discussions can get when people want to eliminate 50% of a market to prove their points.
"Saw the new R-class wagon today in person."
OAC - it's awful. Did you think funeral car when you saw it? I've seen one on the road so far and it looked liked it should be the lead car in a funeral procession.
#12592 of 24726 Re: My Prediction = Good News for Mercedes [merc1]
Jan 07, 2006 (9:31 pm)
Also depends on your winter weather, doesn't it?
Hey, M1, you mentioned that Jaguar (and others) are lined up to offer their versions of the CLS. What exactly are you referring to that Jaguar is doing in response to the CLS? I'm drawing a blank here.
Jan 07, 2006 (9:32 pm)
Both previous generation IS and GS sold all their productions in the first year with hardly any discount, and much more than 14k units. Where do you get off praising CLS sales yet panning IS and GS sales, considering that you have no idea how CLS will do in the 5th year of production.
Yada yada on glorious history 100 years ago; too bad it doesn't sell cars to those who can actually afford to buy them. Why other manufacturers try to build a CLS competitor but not an LS competitor? Isn't the answer obvious? Other manufacturers think they can beat MB at its own game but no chance at beating Lexus. Duh! It's relatively cheap and easy to "invent a new segment" but really hard to make impeccable cars that people really want and sell them at competitive prices; that's a game few excell at, and Lexus happens to be one of the masters.
Jan 07, 2006 (9:35 pm)
That's exactly what I thought when I saw my first a few months ago: the R class looks like the offspring of a Dodge Caravan, previous generation Rav4 and a funeral hearse having had a three-some!
Jan 07, 2006 (9:39 pm)
I guess now I can lump CLK sales in with the C-Class and the CLS in the E-Class in order to jazz up the sales rhetoric.
Please do. As indeed they should. Why should CLK be considered a separate model from C, and CLS from E, when 325ci is part of 3-series sales??
#12596 of 24726 Re: 2005 sales [merc1]
Jan 07, 2006 (9:44 pm)
Er.. the '98-05 car was generation 2. The first GS had a short '93-'97 run, with no updates of any kind. Gen 2 ran '98-'00, and with a very small refresh, they let the car sit for another 5 years.
Most of the reason for the flops of the Gen 1 SC and Gen 2 GS were the fact that Lexus simply ignored them. If BMW were selling a 550i that looked identical to the '97 version, or a 650Ci that looked like the 8 series from the mid '90s, Im sure their sales would stink too.
Of course there were other problems, for one the whole "L-tuned" thing never really materialized.
The failures of the SC, IS, and GS were very much Lexus' fault though. Just like Acura and Infiniti, they've made their share of mistakes in the past.