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High End Luxury Cars

24723 messages,  Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum.

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan



Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Messages Page 1244 of 2473

#12423 of 24723 Re: French Jaguar [brightness04] by merc1

Dec 28, 2005 (2:17 am)

Replying to: brightness04 (Dec 28, 2005 2:12 am)
GS and IS, even in their best years, could not begin to compare to ES and RX sales. The same can not be said of E class. That's why GS and IS in their waning years was nearly as significant the decline of E class.
 
It will next time they do since they GS and now IS are big contributers to Lexus' sales now. You won't be able to fall back on this excuse if and when they start to decline in a few years. The E-Class' decline was to be expected in the face of 5 freshly minted competitors! Same thing happened with the previous GS, only thing different is the timing and the numbers of new competitors in the last 12-18 months.
 
We all know what one of the main reasons they LS430 outsells the rest of the class is, but of course you'll just say price doesn't matter since everyone can lease so I'm done with that.
 
Also, isn't proper managing of production and maintain brand/model prestige what a luxury marque maker supposed to do? Flooding the market with cars that need heavy discount does not jive well with maintaining marque value.
 
Yes it is. Finally something I can agree with. Why they added the S350 this year is beyond me since there won't be a 2007 S350 version of the new S-Class. I guess they didn't want to drop the sales title to the 7-Series in the final year of the W220 production.
 
IS300 actually did quite well in the first couple model years. There was no heavy discounting in the first couple model years like what's available on R-class today, within a few short months after introduction.
 
Yeah sure, quite well compared to what? Not the 3-Series or any other cars it targeted. Lexus simply deciding to let the car die instead of discounting is their choice. I think the truth of the matter is that even with discounts no one wanted the previous generation IS300. It wasn't like they held it at MSRP and settled for small sales. They discounted the thing and it still didn't move! Like I said, the verdict is still out on the R-Class, being a few months old.
 
BTW, the first generation GS300 was quite a different animal from the GS that we know since 1998.
 
Excuses, excuses. The 1993 GS300 is much like the 2006 GS300, slow. The only difference/addition to the GS lineup since the beginning is the addition of a V8, the GS400 and then GS430, which very few people bought during the 1998-2005 model's production run.
 
M

#12424 of 24723 Re: French Jaguar [merc1] by brightness04

Dec 28, 2005 (2:48 am)

Replying to: merc1 (Dec 28, 2005 2:17 am)
I sure hope GS and IS sales numbers will become a significant contributor to Lexus sales overall. Even at half the volume of ES or RX (each close to 100k vehicles, give or take 20k), that will be like another 100k vehicles per year. 300k vehicles a year would be enough to overtake BMW global sales with sales in the US alone! Unfortunately, the GS production line is not much greater than current LS volume (about 20-30k a year), and IS is only set around 50k units per year.
 
The 1gen IS300 was never targetted to overtake 3-series in sales volume; the production line was only 20k units per year, 1/3 of 3 series sales volume in the US alone. IS300 sold every car there was in the first couple years without heavy discounting. In fact, you could not get close to invoice like normal discounting until the 3-4th year. The car never had $10k+ discounts even to the end like MB is doing on many of its models
 
As to the argument that LS sells more due to lower pricing, well, lump-sum $50-70k is actually much more expensive than $450/mo in cash-flow equivalence analysis, assuming disinterested bank rates and normal depreciation. It actualy would not surprise me if MB decide to bring the S350 over in the next generation; if it can make money at $450/mo with it, there will be buyer/leasers. 265hp is plenty enough for a car like that, for chauffer purpose and short business runs in town. The question is whether it can actually make money at that price point.
 
GS V8 to V6 sales volume ratio is about 1:3, about the same as 330i to 325i ratio, much higher than the 1:10 ~ 1:20 ratio that AMG cars account for among MB's.

#12425 of 24723 Re: French Jaguar [brightness04] by merc1

Dec 28, 2005 (2:55 am)

Replying to: brightness04 (Dec 28, 2005 2:48 am)
I sure hope GS and IS sales numbers will become a significant contributor to Lexus sales overall. Even at half the volume of ES or RX (each close to 100k vehicles, give or take 20k), that will be like another 100k vehicles per year. 300k vehicles a year would be enough to overtake BMW global sales with sales in the US alone! Unfortunately, the GS production line is not much greater than current LS volume (about 20-30k a year), and IS is only set around 50k units per year.
 
Lots of doubletalk here, really don't understand any of it ..especially about Lexus overtaking BMW in sales worldwide with on volume in the U.S. alone? What the hell? Makes no sense at all.
 
The 1gen IS300 was never targetted to overtake 3-series in sales volume; the production line was only 20k units per year, 1/3 of 3 series sales volume in the US alone. IS300 sold every car there was in the first couple years without heavy discounting. In fact, you could not get close to invoice like normal discounting until the 3-4th year. The car never had $10k+ discounts even to the end like MB is doing on many of its models
 
Saying they sold every unit doesn't mean anything when they didn't bring over that many in the first place! It like saying productin is sold out when production is low to begin with. No matter how you spin it the car flopped big time. Period. The car never had 10K discounts because a car in the 30-35K segement doesn't typcially have an extra 10K than can be take off to sell it. Very disingenuous remark.
 
As to the argument that LS sells more due to lower pricing, well, lump-sum $50-70k is actually much more expensive than $450/mo in cash-flow equivalence analysis, assuming disinterested bank rates and normal depreciation. It actualy would not surprise me if MB decide to bring the S350 over in the next generation; if it can make money at $450/mo with it, there will be buyer/leasers. 265hp is plenty enough for a car like that, for chauffer purpose and short business runs in town. The question is whether it can actually make money at that price point.
 
Thank you for at least being consistent in your thinking and irrelevancy about everyone leasing.
 
M

#12426 of 24723 Re: French Jaguar [merc1] by brightness04

Dec 28, 2005 (3:05 am)

Replying to: merc1 (Dec 28, 2005 2:55 am)
Lots of doubletalk here, really don't understand any of it really...especially about BMW overtaking BMW in sales worldwide. Makes no sense.
 
Please re-read what I wrote. Lexus selling 300+k vehicles a year in the US would overtake BMW global sales with (Lexus) US sales alone! Would be a neat trick if Lexus can pull that off.
 
The car never had 10K discounts because a car in the 30-35K segement doesn't typcially have an extra 10K than can be take off to sell it. Very disingenuous remark.
 
You'd think so, but MB is apparently pulling the hat trick by making the C class available for $199/mo. But then again, it's not much different from discounting a $110k car by $30k.
 
Thank you for at least being consistent in your thinking and irrelevancy about everyone leasing.
 
I never said everyone leases. However, everyone has a strong incentive to get the best deal. MB has made the choice pretty simple. Don't blame me for comparing lease prices from MB . . . there is not a single sale offer among MB Winter Event, all leases. Obviously, MB is the one pushing leases, not me. Ignoring the best lease offer is the financial equivalent of ignoring the $30k discount on the table and insisting on paying MSRP instead . . . not relevent to real market price. The most basic accounting course would teach you how to discount present cash value of a future stream of cash.

#12427 of 24723 Re: French Jaguar [brightness04] by merc1

Dec 28, 2005 (3:12 am)

Replying to: brightness04 (Dec 28, 2005 3:05 am)
Please re-read what I wrote. Lexus selling 300+k vehicles a year in the US would overtake BMW global sales with (Lexus) US sales alone! Would be a neat trick if Lexus can pull that off.
 
Maybe its the hour because that statement still doesn't make any sense to me. BMW sells over a million units a year.
 
You'd think so, but MB is apparently pulling the hat trick by making the C class available for $199/mo. But then again, it's not much different from discounting a $110k car by $30k.
 
First of all the C-Class isn't available for $199 a month! They have a lease special for $299 a month if that is what you're talking about. You just said that you never stated that everyone leases, yet all you keep harping about is lease prices. Like I said, the fact is that you aren't going to get 10K off a brand new C-Class if you're buying (not leasing) one. Period. A "stroll" to a MB dealer will teach you this.
 
Don't blame me for comparing lease prices from MB . . . there is not a single sale offer among MB Winter Event, all leases.
 
Like they would advertise actual "sale" price on their website or in a commercial. What a ridiculous comment. You don't think they're cutting some type of deal to buyers that actually buy compared to lease?
 
No one else has a big ole "sale price" listed anywhere either, at least not the luxury brands. GM and the gang are of course doing that, but that is another story.
 
M

#12428 of 24723 Re: French Jaguar [merc1] by brightness04

Dec 28, 2005 (3:30 am)

Replying to: merc1 (Dec 28, 2005 3:12 am)
Yup, that was a typo, $299, not $199 a month. . . the wee hours Not everyone leases, but for certain makes, leasing is the only number that reflects real rock bottom pricing. I don't like to lease, therefore I don't get MB at all (hence the part about not everyone leases comes in here; people make brand decisions based on financing/leasing deals all the time, otherwise why do the carmakers offer them at all). But if I were to get an MB, leasing would be the obvious choice, as indeed the overwhelming majority MB acquisitions are nowadays. "If you are buying" is akin to saying "if you are not negotiating any money of MSRP at all" when there is obvious better deal available through leasing (not an endorsement of leasing in general, just pointing out peculiar cases from time to time). Yes, there are still people who pay MSRP's (not talking about Scions), plus undercoat etc.; they are just not relevent to discussions on how much cars are fetching on the market nowadays.

#12429 of 24723 Re: French Jaguar [brightness04] by merc1

Dec 28, 2005 (3:40 am)

Replying to: brightness04 (Dec 28, 2005 3:30 am)
Well to each his own. I don't ever see myself leasing either, at least until I get much older and stop doing 20K miles a year. A lease would kill me on mileage. For people who want a new car every 3 years and don't mind always having a car note and watching mileage leasing is the way to go with any brand.
 
M

#12430 of 24723 Re: French Jaguar [merc1] by brightness04

Dec 28, 2005 (3:41 am)

Replying to: merc1 (Dec 28, 2005 3:12 am)
You don't think they're cutting some type of deal to buyers that actually buy compared to lease?
 
Actually it's called a "dealer incentive" on lease; not available with purchase. Speaking of GM (you mentioned it), it's one of the oldest tricks in GMAC's play book. There is currently a $3-7k "dealer incentive" on E class leases not available with purchase. That's why lease is by far the less expensive way to get MB's nowadays, and overwhelming majority transactions are carried out that way.

#12431 of 24723 Re: French Jaguar [merc1] by brightness04

Dec 28, 2005 (3:43 am)

Replying to: merc1 (Dec 28, 2005 3:40 am)
I don't want to get into the merit of leasing vs. purchase, lest we get too much heat from the host (would be justifiably so). Suffice to say that I'm willing to do either, whichever way the numbers crunch out. For some makes, from time to time, one approach makes a lot more sense than the other thanks to the manufacturer's book cooking needs

#12432 of 24723 Re: French Jaguar [brightness04] by merc1

Dec 28, 2005 (3:50 am)

Replying to: brightness04 (Dec 28, 2005 3:41 am)
That's why lease is by far the less expensive way to get MB's nowadays, and overwhelming majority transactions are carried out that way.
 
Never said it wasn't. My point was that this doesn't work for everyone nor does everyone who gets a MB lease. I would like to see what the percentage is.
 
M

Messages Page 1244 of 2473

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