Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#12297 of 24723 Re: The Union Jack [rjlaero]
Dec 22, 2005 (10:24 pm)
As for people "not" paying over sticker for CLK's in the late 90's, you are dead wrong.
This can happen at any dealer for any hard to get Mercedes model now, like a CLS55 AMG. Nothing has changed now as you try to imply by saying that this happened with the CLK back in the 90s. Waiting lists and people paying sticker or over sticker for MY 2000 S-Classes in the spring of 1999 and the same thing happened for MY 2003 SLs in the spring of 2002.
If anyone paid over sticker for these normal production cars they got had. All they had to do is wait a 6 months or so and/or order one and negotiate for MSRP. To pay over sticker for a normal production model is just plain not smart IMO.
Nothing has changed and waiting lists still exist for certain MB models now, depending on the dealer and area of the country. The new S will likely be scarce too for those first few months.
This implication that the sky has fallen and no Mercedes is in high enough demand to warrant a waiting list anymore is bunk. Models like the CLS55 AMG, CLK500 Cabrio and SLK55 AMG are all still in pretty hot demand in certain markets. Also, one ATL dealership doesn't write the rules for the brand or the whole country either. If they're only a few MB dealers in a big market like Atlanta they can pretty much ask what they want for a hot car, as I'm sure they probably do now. This aspect didn't change with Mercedes-Benz's perceived fall from grace you're hyping up here.
#12298 of 24723 Re: The Union Jack [dewey]
Dec 22, 2005 (10:26 pm)
Pulling the plug would be extreme but what is the solution?
I'm not really sure. Ford just needs to give Jaguar that last bundle of cash for a proper compact rwd platform for the next X-Type and that small F-Type roadster they proposed a few years back.
Porsche wouldn't touch Jaguar I don't think. Too much risk for such a small company, IMO.
#12299 of 24723 Re: French Jaguar [brightness04]
Dec 22, 2005 (10:33 pm)
You/me/I/us have long since lost the plot. I'm talking about prestige and you're still talking about lease rates and what not. You can't even get an A-Class here so whats the point? There isn't one.
#12300 of 24723 How little has change in 35 years!
Dec 23, 2005 (8:15 am)
Does this not sound like a current Lexus LS review ?
In many ways it reminds us of Mercedes sedans in that both are solid and rattle-free and both have that completely honest no-nonsense look and feel abouth them. It doesn't have the Mercedes' handling, admittedly, or the Mercedes ride, but then too, it doesnt have the Mercedes' $5000 price tag, either.
The car above is from a 1970 Toyota Crown Road & Track review
Does the following not sound like a current review of any pricey BMW?
A car whose handling can conquer all road conditions with polished authority, a car as much for enthusiastic hard driving as for sedate comfortable cruising. But it costs over $8000 basic. A car that is unfortunately unattainable for mere mortals.
The above is from a Road & Track review of the 1970 BMW2800CS
Does the following not sound like a current reviews of most Audis(with the exception of S and RS models):
All in all, the Audi is a fine piece of work. It's a pleasant car to look at and it's a pleasant car to drive. The performance isn't all we might ask for in a car of its class but everything it does, it does very well.
The above is from a Road & Track review of a 1970 Audi 100LS.
#12301 of 24723 Re: The Union Jack [merc1]
Dec 23, 2005 (8:27 am)
Here's the sales figures from autosite.com for MB thru Nov 2005 comparing it to 2004
E class: 41,221 (2004: 46,730)
S class: 14,124 (2004: 18,082)
Clk coupe: 6,256 (2004: 9,452)
SL: 8,982 (2004: 11,804)
MB has sold about 13k of the new CLS's this year, so that can be called a success, and the ML is still doing quite well. But with those 4 lines shown above, it's a loss of 15,483 cars over the same time in 2004 for Mercedes.
The whole purpose of having new models like the CLS is to increase market share and penetration. But when you lose nearly 16k cars in the other direction, that's not good.
#12302 of 24723 Re: The Union Jack [rjlaero]
Dec 23, 2005 (9:20 am)
Improvements in MB sales are likely to happen next year when:
The E class gets a face lift next year
The new S class arrives
The SL last year sold in high numbers last year since it was a relatively new car.
Bottom Line: Picking specific car stats and predicting the demise of MB is not sufficient in itself. You got to look at overall sales and MB sales have not done too badly up to now.
#12303 of 24723 Re: The Union Jack [dewey]
Dec 23, 2005 (11:19 am)
Mercedes is not in "demise", but they just aren't as strong as they use to be in the United States from the 70's to 90's.
I think the product line has been watered down from poor styling choices and spotty reliablity over the last 5 years. MB resale is no where near as high as it use to be.
And cutting out things like free maintenace is costing them business as well in the competitive high line market.
#12304 of 24723 Re: The Union Jack [rjlaero]
Dec 23, 2005 (1:04 pm)
Schremp's "Mercedes in every garage" idea was a disasterous one. Thats not what Benz should be all about. BMW and Audi have their "A" game on, there just isn't room in this market for mistakes like that.
#12305 of 24723 Jaguar Would Not Survive Without Ford
Dec 23, 2005 (4:22 pm)
Face it, if FORD hadn't bought Jaguar, they would be long out of business. It is true, Sir William Lyons built great cars in the 50's and 60's-but a small company like Jaguar cannot survive today. Plus, even in their heydey, Jags were a nightmare to maintain-and those ancient 3-SU carb setups were impossible. So, what will Ford do with the line? I'd say drop the low-priced models and stick with the >80K line. This is their best course
#12306 of 24723 Re: Jaguar Would Not Survive Without Ford [martian]
Dec 23, 2005 (11:58 pm)
The reasons behind the acquisition are not a secret. Jaguar needed help. However, the whole Ford group is struggling, as is Jaguar. They have already re-aligned Jaguar production numbers and seem to be re-focusing Jaguar's marketing strategy.
The reliability reports from JD Power and others are much improved since Ford took over, but the brand has not seemingly built much recognition of this. I still hear folks who assume that all Jags are service problems....that is very old news.
They have revised production numbers downward and seem to be headed towards a more exclusive group of Jaguar buyers in the future rather than building the line with cars like the X Type. If they can build a few good cars for the Jag lovers this may be the best approach. Make it a focused smaller luxury brand, and stop trying to sell what is basically a $32,000 Ford ---with Jaguar styling cues.
Ford has seemingly missed the boat in the overall luxury class...They sort of blew it with Jaguar as a growth platform too. The problem seems to be that Ford had hopes of using the Jaguar marque to compete in a broad luxury class. They are now retrenching. At the same time, in the U.S. Lincoln seems to be a struggling brand and has no enthusiast interest. Ford has not found the formula to build a luxury class car line that gets much market share.
By the way, they really have something good with the aluminum chassis and body. My own XJR is quick, feels lively, and gets good gas mileage for a 400 hp car. The new XK replacement is based on this same basic aluminum construction, so we will see what happens with it.