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High End Luxury Cars

24723 messages,  Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum.

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan



Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Messages Page 1229 of 2473

#12281 of 24723 Re: French Jaguar [brightness04] by merc1

Dec 21, 2005 (10:57 pm)

Replying to: brightness04 (Dec 21, 2005 6:34 pm)
$52k in the 1980's was 4-5 times the average new car cost, and it was not barely discounted at all. Today, few even know exactly how much the true market price for an S-class is, what with $7000 discount, subsidized money-factor and inflated residual. I have been seeing S-350 advertized on lease deals below $450/mo! That's barely 1.5x the average new car cost.
 
I can't help but ask so what? A S-Class starts at 65K for the 2006 model year and come 2007 it will back to 75K or so. If they were to follow your theory about pricing an entry level S-Class would cost 125K! Then you'd say they have priced themselves out of the market, which would be true at that price. Doesn't make any sense to me and I honestly don't even know what your point is now. So what if the S350 leases for cheap, everyone doesn't lease and all makes are running cheap lease deals this time of year.
 
Also, interesting that you completely skipped over the point about "cheap MB" in the 80's meant a car costing nearly three times the average new car price; whereas today, an entry level MB is at or below average car cost, depending on where you live in the world. Talk about massive brand dilution.
 
I didn't skip over it, I just really didn't find it worth debating because I already stated that could be seen as brand dilution especially adding a car like the A-Class or B-Class, but likewise you didn't adress the point about Mercedes selling more expensive cars at the high-end than any of these brands here. Like in the over 60K category Mercedes stands alone in sales race and they also sell cars for over 150K in decent numbers too. So IMO for every theory about brand dilution because of the A/B/C-Classes there is one to counter it by looking at the fact that Mercedes sells more cars over 60K and some really pricey ones too and for prices they've never dare attempted before now.
 
I mean what do you think Mercedes should do. Ignore the meat of the market after they've already had success in it? They are no different than anyone else at the bottom end, but they are indeed different at the top. I see nothing from Lexus, Audi, Acura, BMW, Jaguar selling much for over 100K and even those like BMW/Jaguar/Audi have only one model over 100K repsectively. Mercedes has a good half dozen or so of them no one else here does.
 
M

#12282 of 24723 Re: The Union Jack [dewey] by merc1

Dec 21, 2005 (11:06 pm)

Replying to: dewey (Dec 21, 2005 9:32 am)
Jaguar should not to become a company of glorified Nissans or Porsches with accented wood dashboards! The best solution for Jaguar is a dignified death. There is no need to keep Jaguar on life support as Ford has done with Mondeo platforms and Taurus engines.
  
I say pull the plug and get this misery over with!
 
Youch! I can't agree with that Dewey. Jaguar is to fine of a brand (and certain models of car) to just be given up on like that.
 
M

#12283 of 24723 Re: The Union Jack [dewey] by brightness04

Dec 22, 2005 (6:20 am)

Replying to: dewey (Dec 21, 2005 10:14 pm)
haha, your desperation is showing. How about the simplest and most probable reason: the car broke. The odds of all these other potential excuses that you come up are so remote it's not even funny.

#12284 of 24723 Re: French Jaguar [merc1] by brightness04

Dec 22, 2005 (6:31 am)

Replying to: merc1 (Dec 21, 2005 10:57 pm)
Today's $65k is equivalent to about $30k in the 1980's, after inflation adjustment. That means S-class today is not much more exclusive than 190 was back in the 1980's. That is brand dilution, also explains why Maybach became a necessity. Whether a $120k entry price point would price S-class out of market is entirely dependent on the judgement of the market place. Back in the 1980's, that's indeed the price of entry for S, after inflation adjustment. The fact that MB and S class probably can not command that kind of repect anymore is indicative how far the brand has fallen.
 
The claim about MB selling more cars over $60k than anyone else is highly questionable. For one thing, the $60k price point is simply fake: the best selling S class worldwide, the S350, can be leased for less than $450/mo; that is hardly indicative of a $60k car. $450/mo reflects a car clearing in the market place between $30-40k range after all the money shuffling from one pocket to another is accounted for. Also, Lexus is barely offered in many markets. In the US, where Lexus has been on the market for a decade and half, Lexus outsells MB in the $35k+ range, just to pick a mid-point for $30-40k.
 
Also, the handful cars a brand sells at the top end hardly matters. Ford GT selling for well over $100k does not make Ford a High End Luxury Marque. It's the bulk of the fleet mix that decides the marque. 190 was still a premium car as it was nearly three times the average new car price of its time, and it was not discounted. Whereas today, the vast majority of cars that MB sells are not much more than average new car cost, some below average cost.

#12285 of 24723 Re: French Jaguar [brightness04] by merc1

Dec 22, 2005 (6:47 am)

Replying to: brightness04 (Dec 22, 2005 6:31 am)
Yet at the end all that, Mercedes is still higher up on the scale than Lexus, BMW, Jaguar, Audi, Acura or Infiniti because none of them sell anything in numbers at or above the price points I gave in my earlier post.
 
So what if a S350 can be had for a cheap lease price. You seem to think everyone leases and they don't. Lexus outselling Mercedes between 30-40K only goes to show that Lexus isn't a high-end marque, if we go by your theory of; "It's the bulk of the fleet mix that decides the marque".
 
I disagree with any and all of this because Mercedes is still seen by most as the status leader here and around the world, regardless of what they sell the most of. To simply look at what they sell the most of doesn't even tell half the story IMO because it ignores how far the brand reaches and what people are willing to pay for the MB brand. That being several rungs up from any other brand here, except BMW which is close, but not equal.
 
Yeah Mercedes had to create Maybach to compete with Rolls-Royce and Bentley, you're right, but they Mercedes-Benz has no trouble competing with the rest, none whatsoever.
 
If anything Mercedes has reached down and up at the same time with various cars, so the Ford comparision isn't valid. Ford was never a premium brand so the GT is a far reach for them, unlike Mercedes which was always a premium brand. Ford selling one 150K GT model has nothing to do with anything Mercedes does.
 
If the "bulk of the fleet" decided the brand then BMW, Jaguar, Lexus and others wouldn't be considered premium marques over the likes of Acura, Saab, or Volvo because all 3 doe most of their business in the 30-50K range.
 
Sales alone don't determine premium or high-end status by a long shot, otherwise BMW would be known only for 3-Series and Lexus for the ES/RX and they'd be no more distinguished than Volvo, Saab, or Acura, who sell almost exclusively in the 30-50K range.
 
The depth and type of cars offered by a marque play a huge factor in the status of the brand, not just what they sell the most of.
 
I don't disagree that Mercedes has been diluted from their earlier days, but this about what the average car costs and what not simply doesn't mean much when everything from Acura to MB can be had on the cheap (relatively) nowadays. Though everyone doesn't lease either. My point is that is even with this in play MB is still higher up on the scale than anyone, except the truly exclusive brands like Bentley, Aston, Rolls etc. There are lots of things that back this up, sales of high-end cars by MB being one of them. This about Mercedes selling cars that cost below the price of the average new car is "fake" also because it assumes that everyone leases. The price of the average new car is what, around 27K or so. The only Benz you'd have a chance of getting for that price is the C230 Sedan, you surely aren't going to get anything else for that price, at least not in the U.S.
 
M

#12286 of 24723 Re: The Union Jack [merc1] by rjlaero

Dec 22, 2005 (6:59 am)

Replying to: merc1 (Dec 21, 2005 11:06 pm)
I remember in the mid 90's when Mercedes cars were like a bank vault when it came to resale value.
 
People were paying 5-10,000 over sticker for the C class 2 door coupes and convertibles. 2 year old cars were selling close to the factory MSRP. The huge S class the baddest sedan on the block, and the E/S class both had a very high resale.
 
But those days are gone. The S class doesn't have near the presence of the old model. They watered down and made the Clk coupes look like genereic rounded off japanese cars. And something went off kilter when it came to quality control and that "bank vault" feel of the old mercedes seemed to disappear.
 
The CLS sedan is a step in the right direction and we'll have to wait and see what the reaction to the new S class will be.

#12287 of 24723 Re: The Union Jack [rjlaero] by merc1

Dec 22, 2005 (7:46 am)

Replying to: rjlaero (Dec 22, 2005 6:59 am)
People were paying 5-10,000 over sticker for the C class 2 door coupes and convertibles. 2 year old cars were selling close to the factory MSRP.
 
I understand the urge to pile on and make a point about how Mercedes has fallen from grace, but lets not be ridiculous. No one paid 5-10K over sticker for any C-Class Coupe, CLK, E-Class Coupe or anything other Mercedes Coupe of the last 20 years and there never was a C-Class Convertible.
 
M

#12288 of 24723 Re: The Union Jack [brightness04] by bdr127

Dec 22, 2005 (9:06 am)

Replying to: brightness04 (Dec 22, 2005 6:20 am)
haha, your desperation is showing. How about the simplest and most probable reason: the car broke. The odds of all these other potential excuses that you come up are so remote it's not even funny.
 
Perhaps... but taking a picture of one car on the side of the road is hardly representative of anything. In trying to prove something, is that your desperation showing?

#12289 of 24723 Re: The Union Jack [merc1] by dewey

Dec 22, 2005 (9:15 am)

Replying to: merc1 (Dec 21, 2005 11:06 pm)
Youch! I can't agree with that Dewey. Jaguar is to fine of a brand (and certain models of car) to just be given up on like that.
 
Pulling the plug would be extreme but what is the solution?
 
The best solution I believe is a Porsche takeover. But even that solution is not great when you consider the German record of British take-overs.
 
Ford ownership has produced some amazing upper end Jag vehicles (the new XK). The problem is with the lower end Jags suffering from Ford platform sharing.

#12290 of 24723 Re: The Union Jack [merc1] by rjlaero

Dec 22, 2005 (10:15 am)

Replying to: merc1 (Dec 22, 2005 7:46 am)
I meant to say CLK. It started with a C, so I lumped them in with the general C class.
 
As for people "not" paying over sticker for CLK's in the late 90's, you are dead wrong.
 
I lived in Atlanta, GA for most of the 90's up until 2000, and lived about 2 minutes away from RBM Mercedes. There were waiting lists at many MB dealers for the CLK line. And especially for the convertibles. People did pay $5,000 plus over sticker just to get one so they didn't have to wait 6 months. And private party sales were putting CLK's (especially the 430 ragtops)in the paper for over sticker, and people were paying it.

Messages Page 1229 of 2473

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