Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#11890 of 24723 Re: Fact checking !!! [merc1]
Dec 10, 2005 (1:26 pm)
Must have taken a while to come up with this one OAC. I haven't called anyone anything. It amazes me how you holler "personal" and/or "foul" when you can't compete on the facts.
I have shown in many posts how you personalize everything in your posts. What was your response to it ? Paraphrasing you here: it was your way of getting back at those who continually remind you that you don't OWN an MB you argue so hard for. Want me to provide you links to your posts on this ?
Who here said that reliability was "unseemingly" (whatever that means)? Who said that OAC? Now BMW's slogan is BS? This kills the last bit of credibility you had with me.
Obviously you have a huge ego about yourself, so much that I need to be credible with YOU. Hmmm ! This car thingy sure goes to the head... Just remember that you are a poster here like everyone else. As to reliability, wow... where do one start ? There is too much track record here of your statements.... Better to let sleeping dogs lie.
BMW's are the definition of what a driving machine is.
You don't drive this car daily so how can you know ? Or are you going to give us the auto rag definitions, and your test drive impressions ?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you driven a 330Ci only to come away raving about it?
Of course. I even drove a e90 330i SP just a couple months ago, and loved it. Ultimate driving machine these cars are NOT. I still say it is pure BS. Do you know what *ultimate* means ? Check out its definition and see if you can attach it to mainstream BMW cars. A statement repeated long enough can become fact... That doesn't make it so, just bcos many people believe it...
BMW's mainstream cars like the 330i, 530i, 550i, 750i Sport at their "mainstream" cars and they're sportier than all of their competition in sport guise. Are you telling me they aren't? I really need to get an answer here.
It all depends on what you want in a car. Sportier than others suggest others are aiming for sportiness in their products as well. What if they aren't ? What if each car is biased towards some strength of its maker ? Do you understand market/product differentiation ? A product that doesn't differentiate itself is doomed to failure. Lexus' strength and differentiators are luxury, refinement, reliability and customer service. And that's why they have been so hugely successful. BMW may appeal to *sportiness* and that may make them successful. MB may appeal to heritage and marqueness, and that may be enough for them to be successful. Do you even remotely get this ?? So pls stop the *ultimate* driving machine sloganeering. It only matters to those who target such feature.
Let me see if I can state this again so you'll understand it. No one here said that Mercedes' were drivers cars like BMWs. Ok got that part? What I and others have said that they are more in touch wiht the road than the average Lexus is.
Yep. MBs are more in touch with the road than Lexus ! You can say that with a straight face ? Have you owned or driven extensively an S-500 and LS430 to judge that ? Or is it what you read in auto mags ?
Question is how many times are you going to pass off incorrect statements about sales (like the recent one about the LS outselling the S and 7) to make an pointless argument about sales, only to lose credibility when any one of us actually look at the numbers? I like how you cleaned it up by going back to 2004 to make your point. Nice.
You are simply looking for something to trump out as non-credible. The post of mine you quote stated NOTHING about a timeline. I said LS was outselling S + 7-series COMBINED. Did I tell you which year that was, or like your colleague, you simply assumed I meant 2005 YTD? So when I specified the timeline, why not prove that wrong instead of denigrating my post ? If you have the facts for 2004 why not present it ?
The tone you adopt is rather defensive. Throwing and casting aspersions on everything. Credibility with you ? You must have such a lofty view of yourself, Merc1. You and I are like night and day in our lifes... You just don't know it. The only way we cross paths is Edmunds. So pls lay off credibility with you.
#11891 of 24723 Everyone ...
Dec 10, 2005 (1:28 pm)
needs to stop making and taking this discussion personally. You can talk about the cars and the marques all you want, but the comments about other posters need to stop altogether.
#11892 of 24723 A Geezer By Any Other Name...
Dec 10, 2005 (1:31 pm)
I don't know how many times I have seen Lexus LS's on the road.
Maybe 20 times.
I have never seen anyone who wasn't a geezer driving one.
Most of the younger folks, especialy the young suburban mall princesses are huge purchasers of Lexus SUV's.
To get the average Lexus age down in the 40's, those SUV purchasers are probably included in the stats and are responsible for lowering the average age, IMHO.
It would have been nice for them to say if cars really meant cars.
#11893 of 24723 Re: A Geezer By Any Other Name... [hpowders]
Dec 10, 2005 (1:35 pm)
To get the average Lexus age down in the 40's, those SUV purchasers are probably included in the stats and are responsible for lowering the average age.
At 58.7yr for MB, imagine how they arrived at the mid-point ? Must have 70-something S-class owners + 30-somthing C/E owners.... The geezer mobile is MBs... hehehe...
#11894 of 24723 Re: Fact checking !!! [tagman]
Dec 10, 2005 (1:48 pm)
Does Porsche sell more vehicles than Ferrari? It makes no difference, as one of the marques is more likely to raise my pulse when it goes flying by.
Just an FYI. This board discusses the 7-, A8, LS430, Jag, etc level of cars. Only within THIS class of cars are we debating the sales numbers. So there is no need to extend these beyond the confines of HELM. We are not debating Porsches and Ferraris here. Pls use the example pertinent here. When we say the LS430 is #1 luxury full-size car in America, that is within HELM scope, and is correct.
So of the cars in HELM, which one would you rather own ? Not one you'd rather dream about, but one you'll actually BUY.
#11895 of 24723 Re: Fact checking !!! [oac]
Dec 10, 2005 (1:49 pm)
"BMWs are the definition of what a driving machine is."
"You (Merc1) don't drive this car daily so how can you know?"
I have driven BMW's daily since 1993 except for 1 day when I had a fight with a neighbor and didn't leave the house for fear of bodily harm, which is a story for another day.
I have had 2 325i's and now have a 545i.
I have driven the LS430 and the driving experience doesn't even come close.
Unlike Tagman, I cannot say anything good about the seats in the LS.
I agree with Merc1. The seats are rather "undistinguished" except of course to Lexus apologist, Consumer Reports.
My comfort seats are much better. You cannot even compare them.
The car is what it is. A lot of geez.... er, uh, people like it.
Good. God bless them.
You can compare any car in any category where BMW "lives."
It doesn't matter-whether it's SUV's or sedans, it is a simple fact of life.
BMW's are the Ultimate Driving Machines in their price categories.
This is not to say that I am not looking forward to the 2007 LS.
I am and look forward to driving it.
I hope the seats, the steering and the barge-like feeling are improved in the new model.
#11896 of 24723 Re: Tagman [designman]
Dec 10, 2005 (1:51 pm)
The Lexicans donít get sport. Itís like trying get a kid to eat escarole and beans.
I always try to get my kids to eat brocholli. I remind them its good for them, but they go eeewwwww !!!! See, kids by-and-large don't like what their parents tell them *is good for them*, especially teen-age ones.
#11897 of 24723 Lexicans who vilify BMW
Dec 10, 2005 (1:52 pm)
I heard BMWís competitors in ďsport guiseĒ mentioned here. I want to point something out. You canít even get an LS430 in itís native sport guise. I tried on numerous occasions to drive one but it ainít happening. On my last attempt the sales person told me that he had one person order it the past year and the car was never delivered, couldnít be delivered. And this is a big dealership. That shows you where the Lexus sport mentality is at. There is none, period. So a LS fan commenting on sport sedans and vilifying BMW is like the Pope commenting on football.
Dec 10, 2005 (1:54 pm)
#11899 of 24723 Re: Fact checking !!! [oac]
Dec 10, 2005 (1:55 pm)
First let me be quite clear here. I do NOT care about being credible with YOU. Obviously you have a huge ego about yourself, more power to you. You are a poster here like everyone else. As to reliability, wow... where do one start ? There is too much track record here of your statements.... Lets just let sleeping dogs lie.
Thats all fine and good, problem is posting incorrect sales figures, statements about Mercedes safety systems failing and how they invited journalist to come and watch are extremely mis-leading at best, to say the least. It does a great diservice to readers who tend to believe any and everything they read on the internet and if it weren't for others double checking most of this stuff it would be left to stand as fact, when it couldn't be any further from the truth.
It all depends on what you want in a car. Sportier than others suggests others are aiming for sportiness in their products. What if they aren't ? What if each car is biased towards some strength of its maker ? What you have no clue about is market/product differentiation. A product that doesn't differentiate itself is doomed to failure. Do you even remotely get this ?? So pls stop the *ultimate* driving machine sloganeering. It only matters to those who target such feature.
It seems to me that BMW has proven over and over that they are just that, the ultimate driving machine. Now since Lexus opened their big mouth and said they were targeting this and failed we get this spin about this slogan only meaning something to people that BMWs appeal to! You're kidding! I thought that was the whole reason for having a slogan or advertising in the first place - to reach a core group of people or a select audience. All the irrelevancy about customer service and what not the Lexus fans constantly tout likewise only matters to people who place such things above all else.
Lexus' strength and differentiators are luxury, refinement, reliability and customer service. And that's why they have been so hugely successful. BMW may appeal to *sportiness* and that may make them successful. MB may appeal to heritage and marqueness, and that may be enough for them to be successful.
Who is arguing with this? You act as though no other car other than a Lexus is luxurious or reliable. The truth is that other cars are just that, at least enough to keep their buyers interested. The ridiculous theory about Lexus selling so many cars and being so perfect because of that is just plain silly when other brands are in the same sales ballpark, esepcially BMW. That alone tells you that their are other factors besides reliability and customer service that sells these cars.
Yep. MBs are more in touch with the road than Lexus ! You an say that with a straight face ? Have you owned or driven extensively an S-500 and LS430 to judge that ? Or is it what you read in auto mags ?
Nope, don't need to own a car to know how it drives. Another fallacy given here constantly, that you have to own a car to know how it drives. You're able to tell how a 330i drives from a test drive of a few minutes, or at least to be able to tell it drives sportier, but no one else is able to do the same with a test drive of a LS430 vs the competition. I've driven the LS430 a few times now and the S-Class many times and my opinions on both as to how they drive are based on such driving experience. Don't need to own one to see and feel how they drive, don't be ridiculous. If I made a statement about which car was more reliable or disputed the fact that the LS shows to be more reliable in survey - then I'd need to own one of them of both. Not to know that the LS430 keeled over like a barge at Lexus' own test drive event.
You are simply looking for something to trump out as non-credible. The post of mine you quote stated NOTHING about a timeline. I said LS was outselling S + 7-series COMBINED. Did I tell you which year that was, or like your colleague, you simply assumed I meant 2005 YTD. So when I specified the timeline, why not prove that wrong instead of denigrating my post ? If you have the facts for 2004 why not present it ?
Well it really doesn't require much "looking" to see the hype often presented here. Sales figures YTD that have been light by one month for the non-Lexus brand or articles about safety equipment failing without the whole story being posted - nothing but hype.
Lastly, this about Lexus and their product differenation skills is a joke. They have 4 sedans and 3 SUVs, yet they're so diversified as to make them all boring (except the IS350) and drive more or less alike (again except the IS350), yeah that is product "differentiation" alright. Seems to me they've made their success on making the same type of product for different segments not because they offer something from everyone as you try to imply. People looking for sporty car that isn't small like the IS or a sporty car without 4-doors are out of luck at a Lexus store. Seems to me product diversity is something they're only just now trying to do with sportier cars like the IS and to a lesser degree the new GS. Until now all they had was boring, yawnish sedans and even more drole SUVs.
Oh, If BMWs aren't the ultimate driving machines in the luxury segment then what brand is? It certainly isn't Lexus. Yet if someone were to suggest that the ultimate in luxury is a Lexus, this would be gladly excepted as some type of fact. If BMW isn't the maker of the ultimate driving machine from the 325i all the way up to a 760i Sport, then who is?