Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#11886 of 24726 Re: Fact checking !!! [syswei]
Dec 10, 2005 (11:56 am)
This link from USA Today link title is truly eye opening. Of the cars we discuss on THIS forum, guess who actually drives geezer mobiles - MB ranks right next to Buick in old age buyers. Lexus appeals to *younger* buyers than MB, while BMW is even slightly younger still. Interesting factoid. So if Lexus were that geezer mobiles, how is it that younger folks buy them so much ? Truth is, many upwardly mobile 30- and 40-somethings are buying Lexus bcos it represents what they want - luxury that is affordable, quality that is not overt, reliability you can count on, features that work as intended, and a customer service that actually is customer-friendly. What is not to like ?
Being a Lexus fan, I just added an LX470 to the home fleet joining my venerable and still highly reliable 1999 LS400. After 109K miles and still outstandingly quiet, smooth and refined, it makes most sense for another Lexus. At least I am putting my money where my mouth is, not just blowing hot air around here !!!
#11888 of 24726 Re: Fact checking !!! [syswei]
Dec 10, 2005 (12:13 pm)
You and Oac keep missing the key part of hpowders' statement. He was talking about the LS430 in particular, not the entire Lexus brand. The LS430 looks and drives just like what he stated. It even has the flatest seats around to go with that image.
Dec 10, 2005 (12:14 pm)
In consideration of some of your eloquent, rapid-fire posts as a Euro-car fan, I thought your LS review was rather mild. Anyway, I totally agree with you about the noise and engine. To me the LS is a gilded Toyota, which in my opinion is both good and bad depending on which side of the sport/luxury fence one is on. The Lexicans donít get sport. Itís like trying get a kid to eat escarole and beans.
#11890 of 24726 Re: Fact checking !!! [merc1]
Dec 10, 2005 (12:26 pm)
Must have taken a while to come up with this one OAC. I haven't called anyone anything. It amazes me how you holler "personal" and/or "foul" when you can't compete on the facts.
I have shown in many posts how you personalize everything in your posts. What was your response to it ? Paraphrasing you here: it was your way of getting back at those who continually remind you that you don't OWN an MB you argue so hard for. Want me to provide you links to your posts on this ?
Who here said that reliability was "unseemingly" (whatever that means)? Who said that OAC? Now BMW's slogan is BS? This kills the last bit of credibility you had with me.
Obviously you have a huge ego about yourself, so much that I need to be credible with YOU. Hmmm ! This car thingy sure goes to the head... Just remember that you are a poster here like everyone else. As to reliability, wow... where do one start ? There is too much track record here of your statements.... Better to let sleeping dogs lie.
BMW's are the definition of what a driving machine is.
You don't drive this car daily so how can you know ? Or are you going to give us the auto rag definitions, and your test drive impressions ?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you driven a 330Ci only to come away raving about it?
Of course. I even drove a e90 330i SP just a couple months ago, and loved it. Ultimate driving machine these cars are NOT. I still say it is pure BS. Do you know what *ultimate* means ? Check out its definition and see if you can attach it to mainstream BMW cars. A statement repeated long enough can become fact... That doesn't make it so, just bcos many people believe it...
BMW's mainstream cars like the 330i, 530i, 550i, 750i Sport at their "mainstream" cars and they're sportier than all of their competition in sport guise. Are you telling me they aren't? I really need to get an answer here.
It all depends on what you want in a car. Sportier than others suggest others are aiming for sportiness in their products as well. What if they aren't ? What if each car is biased towards some strength of its maker ? Do you understand market/product differentiation ? A product that doesn't differentiate itself is doomed to failure. Lexus' strength and differentiators are luxury, refinement, reliability and customer service. And that's why they have been so hugely successful. BMW may appeal to *sportiness* and that may make them successful. MB may appeal to heritage and marqueness, and that may be enough for them to be successful. Do you even remotely get this ?? So pls stop the *ultimate* driving machine sloganeering. It only matters to those who target such feature.
Let me see if I can state this again so you'll understand it. No one here said that Mercedes' were drivers cars like BMWs. Ok got that part? What I and others have said that they are more in touch wiht the road than the average Lexus is.
Yep. MBs are more in touch with the road than Lexus ! You can say that with a straight face ? Have you owned or driven extensively an S-500 and LS430 to judge that ? Or is it what you read in auto mags ?
Question is how many times are you going to pass off incorrect statements about sales (like the recent one about the LS outselling the S and 7) to make an pointless argument about sales, only to lose credibility when any one of us actually look at the numbers? I like how you cleaned it up by going back to 2004 to make your point. Nice.
You are simply looking for something to trump out as non-credible. The post of mine you quote stated NOTHING about a timeline. I said LS was outselling S + 7-series COMBINED. Did I tell you which year that was, or like your colleague, you simply assumed I meant 2005 YTD? So when I specified the timeline, why not prove that wrong instead of denigrating my post ? If you have the facts for 2004 why not present it ?
The tone you adopt is rather defensive. Throwing and casting aspersions on everything. Credibility with you ? You must have such a lofty view of yourself, Merc1. You and I are like night and day in our lifes... You just don't know it. The only way we cross paths is Edmunds. So pls lay off credibility with you.
#11891 of 24726 Everyone ...
Dec 10, 2005 (12:28 pm)
needs to stop making and taking this discussion personally. You can talk about the cars and the marques all you want, but the comments about other posters need to stop altogether.
#11892 of 24726 A Geezer By Any Other Name...
Dec 10, 2005 (12:31 pm)
I don't know how many times I have seen Lexus LS's on the road.
Maybe 20 times.
I have never seen anyone who wasn't a geezer driving one.
Most of the younger folks, especialy the young suburban mall princesses are huge purchasers of Lexus SUV's.
To get the average Lexus age down in the 40's, those SUV purchasers are probably included in the stats and are responsible for lowering the average age, IMHO.
It would have been nice for them to say if cars really meant cars.
#11893 of 24726 Re: A Geezer By Any Other Name... [hpowders]
Dec 10, 2005 (12:35 pm)
To get the average Lexus age down in the 40's, those SUV purchasers are probably included in the stats and are responsible for lowering the average age.
At 58.7yr for MB, imagine how they arrived at the mid-point ? Must have 70-something S-class owners + 30-somthing C/E owners.... The geezer mobile is MBs... hehehe...
#11894 of 24726 Re: Fact checking !!! [tagman]
Dec 10, 2005 (12:48 pm)
Does Porsche sell more vehicles than Ferrari? It makes no difference, as one of the marques is more likely to raise my pulse when it goes flying by.
Just an FYI. This board discusses the 7-, A8, LS430, Jag, etc level of cars. Only within THIS class of cars are we debating the sales numbers. So there is no need to extend these beyond the confines of HELM. We are not debating Porsches and Ferraris here. Pls use the example pertinent here. When we say the LS430 is #1 luxury full-size car in America, that is within HELM scope, and is correct.
So of the cars in HELM, which one would you rather own ? Not one you'd rather dream about, but one you'll actually BUY.
#11895 of 24726 Re: Fact checking !!! [oac]
Dec 10, 2005 (12:49 pm)
"BMWs are the definition of what a driving machine is."
"You (Merc1) don't drive this car daily so how can you know?"
I have driven BMW's daily since 1993 except for 1 day when I had a fight with a neighbor and didn't leave the house for fear of bodily harm, which is a story for another day.
I have had 2 325i's and now have a 545i.
I have driven the LS430 and the driving experience doesn't even come close.
Unlike Tagman, I cannot say anything good about the seats in the LS.
I agree with Merc1. The seats are rather "undistinguished" except of course to Lexus apologist, Consumer Reports.
My comfort seats are much better. You cannot even compare them.
The car is what it is. A lot of geez.... er, uh, people like it.
Good. God bless them.
You can compare any car in any category where BMW "lives."
It doesn't matter-whether it's SUV's or sedans, it is a simple fact of life.
BMW's are the Ultimate Driving Machines in their price categories.
This is not to say that I am not looking forward to the 2007 LS.
I am and look forward to driving it.
I hope the seats, the steering and the barge-like feeling are improved in the new model.