Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#11718 of 24726 Lexicans Response..
Dec 07, 2005 (6:45 am)
I don't understand this prestige argument at all...Isn't it obvious a nameplate that has existed for not even 20 yrs will NOT be considered more prestigious than a historical marque such as MB..I think we can all agree on that fact Prestige is a function of time.
I do think MB is concerned with Lexus at least in the USA. I distinctly remember a Mercedes VP complaining in the early 90's about the LS400 in terms of pricing. I don't think Lexus builds a car that really would appeal to the Euro driver, perhaps with the IS as the only exception.
Expensive cars and quality should NOT be mutually exclusive. Mercedes until recently consistently built high quality cars. With the exception of their SL class I don't think they ever were a "Style" leader 'back in the day'. Their move towards style seems to only have started with the 2001 S Class.
If quality wasn't important, why has Jaguar spent countless $$$ trying to build up quality? I'm not sure you've noticed, but Jaguar is one of the most reliable Euro nameplates out there. As some have said here, Public perception does take time to catch up with reality. If you say Jaguar to the common public they will say "Unreliable" even though it isn't true anymore.
I would agree Jaguar is on a higher level than Lexus in terms of "Name" But I'd venture the LS430 outclasses it in Reliability, Resale, Consumer Satisfaction, and Electronics. Japan still is the leader in Electronics..If you doubt this, have a look the Lexus Nav system. You'll
see it outclasses the competition by a large amount. Besides, I still don't understand the Euro's fascination with pointless electronics..This isn't an Airbus!!! I think things have gone too far with this Drive by Wire nonsense. My LS430 has it, and I hate it.
Where does the perception come from that Lexus cars are slow? The LS/GS/IS/SC all have good track numbers. I don't see anyone attempting to race a SUV so I'll leave them out of it. If you read the original reviews of the LS400 back in 1990, it had the best 0-60 times. Sure, it definitely will not outcorner a BMW, but it wasn't SUPPOSED to!!!!
I've driven Jaguar cars..I can't say there is a big difference in ride between a Vandenplas and a LS. Handling is better in the XJ, but that is about it..I'd put the smoothness of ride in my 92 LS400 against anything. I've driven Mercedes cars too. They tend to be more nimbler but again not a "Huge" difference. The real difference was the BMW as expected..
I'm inclined to agree with Merc on the whole dealer issue. I've had some really bad experiences with my Lexus dealer, the last experience almost made me sue them....I wasn't impressed with the Mercedes dealer either, but that may be a geographical thing. I haven't been in a BMW dealer, because it isn't my sort of car. Jaguar dealers were nice enough, but again, I have limited experience with them.
#11719 of 24726 Re: True Luxury Cars. READ THIS!! by TagMan [merc1]
Dec 07, 2005 (6:46 am)
MB's key focus is BMW
Audi's key focus is BMW/MB
And if I'm Lexus - I'm happy as hell about this and hope it stays that way. Because not focusing on a competitor like Lexus is blatantly stupid - in all three cases.
In all honesty do you really think a young company that has blown past them (sales, quality, customer satisfaction, retained value, dealer service - and remember many who own Lexus dealers also own MB and other lux dealerships) in the largest and most profitable market in the world is not a key focus? Because if that's the case then they have managers who cannot see the future. That was certainly the case in 1990 and for the Germans sake I hope it isn't the same now.
#11720 of 24726 Re: Lexicans Response.. [sv7887]
Dec 07, 2005 (7:01 am)
I would strongly disagree that prestige is a function of time. Consider Oldsmobile or Ford. How about Cadillac (in case you wish to point out that olds/ford are not premium brands). Prestige is more a function of cost than time. Whats more prestigious LS400 or MB / S-XXX? I would consider both equally prestigious and thats that. I'd go with a Lexus based on reliability any day. Just the fact that MB builds vehicles with poor reliability rating detracts from their status which by the way was built on reliability in the first place.
#11721 of 24726 Re: I Agree to Disagree.. [designman]
Dec 07, 2005 (7:28 am)
You know what they say about death and taxes well, there is one more sure thing to add to the list . . . nothing is free. Your free oil changes (be they at 7,500 interval or 15,000 interval) are built into the price. The point is your BMW dealer made you feel special and you will remember these "Free" add ons far longer than the vehicle price you settled on. Next time you are in the market, you will be back at this dealership. If I were in their shoes, I would give you all of the espressos that you can hold down. Free of course.
#11722 of 24726 Re: True Luxury Cars. READ THIS!! by TagMan [ljflx]
Dec 07, 2005 (7:28 am)
…not focusing on a competitor like Lexus is blatantly stupid…
Indeed. I have no doubt in my mind that what BMW is doing with their maintenance programs and upgraded dealerships is a direct result of Lexus. Moral of the story as we all know—fierce competition is good for the consumer.
#11723 of 24726 Re: I Agree to Disagree.. [zman5]
Dec 07, 2005 (7:50 am)
There is an easy way to see if this is true or not. If there was no increase or nothing more than the normal increase in a BMW in the year this firts started then indeed it was a throw in as an incentives. I'm sure there's a BMW buyer here who would know that. Incentives like this are really a different form of marketing costs. In this case, rather than spend in the ad market the company saves the consumer money and it really is free. If it works it is a win-win. Apparently it works a lot better for BMW then it did for MB.
#11724 of 24726 Re: I Agree to Disagree.. [zman5]
Dec 07, 2005 (8:07 am)
Well some things are freer than others. I got the car I wanted at $8K off MSRP, which is probably close to record for a bimmer purchase, it hasn’t cost me a dime in maintenance and most importantly, I love the car.
As far as it being built into the price, I don’t look at it that way. BMWs were always expensive and at the same relative price levels as they are today. Plus, in the old days maintenance costs were outrageous. So competition like Lexus coming along was a real good thing. Anyway I would have bought it with or without the free maintenance, so it’s icing on the cake… I mean… anisette in the espresso.
#11725 of 24726 Re: True Luxury Cars. READ THIS!! by TagMan [tagman]
Dec 07, 2005 (8:17 am)
Do you know I own both MB and BMW too beside Lexus? It is no big deal owning MB or BMW. My father has a RR too. Again, no big deal. For us, those so call marques are a dime a dozen in HK. We don't think they look that special or stir the emotion. Lexus is considered a lurxury brand even here in HK.
#11726 of 24726 Re: I Agree to Disagree.. [ljflx]
Dec 07, 2005 (8:23 am)
I'm not sure of this but I think there was no extraordinary price increase when they initiated free maintenance. However, maybe they have been slowly increasing costs at a higher rate than everyone else? But even then, BMWs were always expensive, no less expensive in 1980 than they are today, I think. I bet the definitive answer is somewhere in the 5 or 3 series threads if you want to go digging. Maybe someone around here will know for sure, perhaps hpowders since he's had BMWs for quite some time. If not maybe I'll inquire in the other threads.
#11727 of 24726 Re: I Agree to Disagree.. [tagman]
Dec 07, 2005 (8:26 am)
There were companies that made prestigeous and beautiful cars in the old days. But they are not here anymore today. Lets hope MB stays on. I understand your ideas about the past, but this is a new era. If a company doesn't perform, they will be out of business.