Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#11676 of 24723 Re: True Luxury Cars. READ THIS!! by TagMan [tagman]
Dec 06, 2005 (11:30 am)
From a distance, the Lexus could be a regular Toyota. Basically that's what they are anyway . . . well-trimmed, well-equipped, and nicely-appointed Toyota's
This is what they WERE ! But is the new GS and IS Toyotas ? Of course not ! These are built from the ground up on a new chassis. Would the new LS be a regular Toyota as you alluded to ?
This IS the history of Lexus, like it or not, TO BE A PREMIUM TOYOTA COUNTERPART. My goodness, no matter how reliable, Lexus is NOT a Jaguar XJ Vanden Plas, or a BMW 7-Series, or a Mercedes Benz S-Class, or a Bentley, or an Aston Martin.
Again, I'll re-phrase this more correctly. This WAS the history of Lexus... And those other cars you mentioned are NO Lexus either. Maybe you have not noticed, Lexus is doing real well, and in the most important market, the NA market, Lexus is the #1 of luxury car makers. Does that not tell you something ? Would Jaguar not love to have the level of success that Lexus has ? Ditto MB, and BMW... Love it or hate it, Lexus is a force in the industry. One can even argue that no marque brand has made more dramatic changes to the luxury car market here in NA than Lexus. Of course, there are historians who'd rather we live in the past. Nothing wrong with history per se, but failure to acknowledge the present is wrong. Lexus is among the elites in the luxury market, whether you like it or not. That is simple reality in today's auto market !
Here is something I'd like very much to debate on. In the boardrooms of MB, VW/Audi, BMW, Jaguar, which car maker do they talk about most ? I'd wager its Toyota/Lexus. Would make sense seeing the dominating position the latter is, and the potential dominant position in the future starting in 2006. Sorry, Tagman, times have changed...As Len (ljflx) would point out very eloquently, Lexus' price has increased with each new release, and slowly but surely are approaching MB/BMW level. Notice where the new GS sells for, at the 5-series level. Notice where the new IS sells at, at the 3-er price point. See the changing landscape ? The next LS would be priced quite close to comparable MBs, you'll see, and it would sell real strong too, just like the new IS and GS are currently doing. That is success...
#11677 of 24723 Re: True Luxury Cars. READ THIS!! by TagMan [oac]
Dec 06, 2005 (1:07 pm)
I AM in an environment where there is talk about cars with very often little or no regard to budget limitations. I agree that the Lexus is frequently a topic of discussion and has a well-earned reputation. There is no dispute over that at all. What I am saying, however, is that as the ability and willingness to buy and maintain a high-end car increases, the Lexus becomes LESS of a consideration. There IS a sweet spot for it, I'll admit. It is the first tiers of successful folks who are VERY concerned about the reliability, because they do not want to have any additional out-of-pocket- expenses to upkeep the vehicle. Also, they need to be a bit "pointy-headed" about their decision, so as not to look too flamboyant. These are the "clipboared buyers" with their copy of Consumer Reports magazine attached that "analyze" the purchase so that they can be comfortable and sleep well at night believing that they made a "smart" decision. It's a different mentality than buying a car simply because it is gorgeous and upscale with tons of prestige. The Lexus IS model that you refer to is NOT that kind of car, even if it has its "own" platform. Heck, that car would compare more to an Acura or Jetta, or something like that . . . NOT an S-Class or Jaguar XJ, etc.
Recently, a friend, whose wife is a successful real-estate agent, wanted a new Jaguar XJ sedan, but after discussing it, she was afraid that her clients might get the wrong message. They decided to "tone it down" and get her a Lexus sedan because it wouldn't have much of an impact on her clients. And that is a great example. The car has LESS impact and does NOT STIR the EMOTIONS the way the upper-end BMW's, JAG's, and Mercedes do. It's just in a different category, successful or not. Lexus is still a well-appointed Toyota, no matter how you slice it. Even if some of the models are only marketed with the Lexus label.
#11679 of 24723 Re: True Luxury Cars. READ THIS!! by TagMan [oac]
Dec 06, 2005 (1:30 pm)
the NA market, Lexus is the #1 of luxury car makers
Lexus is not the #1 luxury car maker in any country!
I think by now we all know who is is the #1 luxury car company in the USA, dont we?
In Canada Lexus is not at all as popular here as in the USA.
Here is something I'd like very much to debate on. In the boardrooms of MB, VW/Audi, BMW, Jaguar, which car maker do they talk about most ? I'd wager its Toyota/Lexus
MB's key focus is BMW
Audi's key focus is BMW/MB
Jaguar's key focus is moving upscale after encountering disappointments with their Jaguar X type.
BMW's key focus is being number one luxury car maker and staying number one
The focus of Lexus according to Clements is to beat BMW(although the GS is no threat to the BMW5 and the IS no threat to the BMW3)
#11680 of 24723 Re: True Luxury Cars. READ THIS!! by TagMan [tagman]
Dec 06, 2005 (1:51 pm)
Ah, a car that stirs the emotions doesn't mean it is a good car. My family has both MB, and BMW, but they are in for repair more often than our Lexuses. Here's the point, TagMan: people nowadays don't buy cars to just look at them.
#11681 of 24723 Re: True Luxury Cars. READ THIS!! by TagMan [ctsang]
Dec 06, 2005 (1:56 pm)
In our family we dont only look at our 1983 MB300D and a 99 BMW323i , but we also drive them! In fact it is a good thing that we can drive these two cars because in all honesty our cars are not the "best of lookers"
but they are in for repair more often than our Lexuses.
I am sure your Lexuses are more reliable! Sonatas are more reliable than Camrys. So what??
My wife and I maintain tight auto budets(we are both accountants by background) and would ditch our cars in a second if they were expensive to maintain! That has not happened yet!
#11682 of 24723 Re: True Luxury Cars. READ THIS!! by TagMan [designman]
Dec 06, 2005 (2:18 pm)
I think you will raise the ire of the Lexicans. They should be coming out of the woodwork any minute now
The Victory Speech
We have managed to re-take the Alamo and it appears that we have won this war of attrition !
All Lexicans have finally become worn out by their own arguments!
To the victor belong the spoils!
#11683 of 24723 Re: True Luxury Cars. READ THIS!! by TagMan [ctsang]
Dec 06, 2005 (2:18 pm)
It's good to see a LOT of agreement on this. If no one cared about what a car looked like the auto business would not be the business it is today. APPEARANCE is a HUGE factor in the auto business. Of course, not the ONLY factor. Design studios and departments are CRITICAL to the success of a car.
And your point is so correct when you admit: As a Lexus owner, you don't care much about the appearance of your car!!!!! Perfect for you! You've made my whole point, and I thank you! Yes, you can feel successful in your Lexus, but . . .
For the rest of us that DO appreciate the beauty and prestige of a gorgeous and fine luxury car, we would not be driving a Lexus for that reason. We would rather drive Mercedes Benz, Jaguar, BMW, Porsche, Aston Martin, Bentley, R.R., etc. Truly, world's apart.
#11684 of 24723 Re: True Luxury Cars. READ THIS!! by TagMan [dewey]
Dec 06, 2005 (2:24 pm)
Thank you, Dewey!!!!
We are united once more!!!
#11685 of 24723 Re: True Luxury Cars. READ THIS!! by TagMan [tagman]
Dec 06, 2005 (2:36 pm)
Thanks for agreeing that MB and BMW are not as reliable as Lexus. They used to look good, but the new S class does not. Too bad. Sooner or later, like reliability, they will loss the beauty part to Japanese too. Thanks again. Case closed.