Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#11057 of 24726 Re: Mercedes-Benz vs Lexus - The Sequel [killerbunny]
Nov 06, 2005 (9:36 am)
There is no poorly built car, but only poorly priced ones
Not sure I agree. There are enough horror stories out there about MB in recent years that I wonder if some of their cars could indeed have been called "poorly built". For instance check this fellow's story:
ejerod, "Mercedes-Benz S-Class" #1611, 29 Apr 2004 9:13 am
OK, since then MB has improved some in the IQS, but still ranks below Lexus, BMW, and others; and the jury is still out on how much long-term reliability has been improved.
#11058 of 24726 Re: Mercedes-Benz vs Lexus - The Sequel [killerbunny]
Nov 06, 2005 (9:42 am)
The problem with VW Phaeton is that it is overpriced.
No way is the Phaeton overpriced! The Phaeton is cheaper than the S-Class and 7-Series. It wasn't intended from the start to compete with cars like the LS430 which isn't a "benchmark" in Europe. Europe being where VW wanted to make an engineering statement in MB's face. Selling it here was debated, delayed and then half-done. The car was intended to be a cheaper rival to the S-Class and to a lesser degree the 7-Series and it is cheaper than those cars.
The problem with the Phaeton is the VW badge, dealer body and to a lesser degree VW's bad reliability reputation.
You're right the first generation LS400 was cheap. If I remember right it was about the price of a 190E, around 35K base and 41K or so with the few options it had back then.
No one can build a car of the LS or Phaeton's specification for that type of money in today's market. Not gonna happen. The Phaeton is priced right compared to its other German rivals, but everything else is off as I mentioned above. The biggest problem is that "VW" stands for inexpensive cars, not luxury cars. Phaetons can be had for 10-15K off sticker according to some on these boards, now if that doesn't sell them it has to be the badge. That and the fact that most people don't even know the car exists.
Now imo if VW wanted to "save" the car they should bring over the SWB Phaeton with the V8 and sell it for E500/550i/A6 4.2 money. That might interest buyers in the same way some buyers look at an E500 or A6 4.2. and then find a much bigger LS430 far more attractive because they see the similarly priced base LS430 as a rung up from the mere mid-size/level luxury cars. I seriously doubt they'll throw any more money at the Phaeton at this point, but I think it would work.
#11059 of 24726 Re: Mercedes-Benz vs Lexus - The Sequel [merc1]
Nov 06, 2005 (9:52 am)
I think that once the "CLS" version of the Passat arrives, that will be the end of the Phaeton. I'm not even sure that is a good idea... the Passat is expensive enough already. Do they need to make a "sexy" version with a $5K+ price hike? The CLK competitor they are working on is also questionable. Not exactly a replacement for the Cabriolet.
#11060 of 24726 Re: Mercedes-Benz vs Lexus - The Sequel [lexusguy]
Nov 06, 2005 (10:06 am)
Yeah thats what I've read too. VW isn't under the rule of Piech anymore so there will be no more Phaetons. To think at one time this madness included a VW based on the A6 also. Would have likely been a brilliant but totally irrelevant car. Now the new 4-door coupe version of the Passat I'm all for because it will make use of mainly existing hardware. What CLK competitor? You're not talking about the Eos are you?
BTW, I finally got my C&D and this new Passat is some car, but at 38K it won't get the chance to really prove it to many Camry/Accord/Sonta/Fusion etc. buyers. Just looking that the comparo in the same issue clearly shows the Passat to be a vastly superior car imo.
#11061 of 24726 Re: Mercedes-Benz vs Lexus - The Sequel [merc1]
Nov 06, 2005 (10:08 am)
"The problem with the Phaeton is the VW badge, dealer body and to a lesser degree VW's bad reliability reputation."
Have to agree with ya on this one, MERC1. I won't buy any VW, even the cute Beetle for my wife, who has wanted one at least, when they first came out. I sure won't pay MB prices for one.
#11062 of 24726 Re: Just a Thought.. [nvbanker]
Nov 06, 2005 (2:12 pm)
I don't disagree with you at all. I would just add that the compulsion is different between cultures, which produces a different result - ie; The European compulsion is to make a refined, performing machine that will last mechanically forever, and go really fast all day long. The Aisans compulsion is Zero-Defects. The Europeans expect some maintenance issues during the life of the car, but it must go fast and mechanically be sound. Light bulbs are minor issues to them, as are many other things. Comand, being one. The Aisans are shamed when that light bulb fails, so every component must be excellent, but how fast the car goes - not important.
That's why they're different, and then there's the American culture, which has been shaped by years of dominance, which has been - get it out there as cheaply and as fast as you can, and it should last 2-3 years, after that, it's on the used market and who cares? Now, that has been changed in the past decade or so, but only because of necessity through competition from abroad, especially from the Aisans.
Bottom line? Depends on what your priority is. If you hate maintenance, for whatever reason, you need an Asian car. If you like driving pleasure and excitement, then a European car is likely for you. If you don't care about either, buy American. (Just kidding!) The American car is evolving quickly into the best of both, in some models. But that's for another discussion.
I have been travelling in some European regions where getting access to e-mails was not the norm (e.g. the Swabian enclave of Biberach, Germany; not too far off from Stuttgart) I am used to here in the US. Just got back home and checking Edmunds, only to find debates on HELM heating up... But none more so unusual than the above post from nvbanker.
I am shocked.... that nvbanker wrote 3 lenghty paragraphs.... Shocking !!! What weighty issue led to this ???? Rather than his usual 1-line bantering, or occassional 2-liners.... Maybe the moon is half-out or something ???
And I find myself agreeing with his post...might as well since I have never read so much words from him....
#11063 of 24726 Re: Just a Thought.. [oac]
Nov 06, 2005 (4:14 pm)
Just got back home and checking Edmunds, only to find debates on HELM heating up...
Nah, it's basically the same ol’ drivel. Go unpack, have a cocktail, dinner, then come back to the computer and pay attention… I’m sure you will find something to torque you off.
#11064 of 24726 Re: Mercedes-Benz vs Lexus - The Sequel [merc1]
Nov 06, 2005 (4:32 pm)
Now imo if VW wanted to "save" the car they should bring over the SWB Phaeton with the V8 and sell it for E500/550i/A6 4.2 money.
Or they could take the Phaeton, rebadge it as an Audi only and call it the A8.
#11065 of 24726 Re: Just a Thought.. [dewey]
Nov 06, 2005 (5:02 pm)
If it were irrelevent...The German cars would not have the problem with Electronic or software or whatever problems that they have now. Why are asian cars reliable but German cars are not (relative to the Japanese at least)
Why are they having problems in this Globalized world?
#11066 of 24726 Re: Mercedes-Benz vs Lexus - The Sequel [merc1]
Nov 06, 2005 (5:24 pm)
Isnt the EOS aimed at the CLK?
Sure the Passat is superior to the family sedan class, but at $38K, its no longer in that class. Its competing with G, IS, TL, C, 3, and the A4 as well. Is it better than those cars?