Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
Oct 24, 2005 (9:13 am)
YTD through September, 5.7% of 3-series sales are of the M3, and .014% of 5-series sales are of the M5. They don't even make a M7, of course.
The numbers are somewhat unfair as presented as I believe both are based on the old platforms. So looking back at CY 2004, it was 7.4% for the M3 and 0.7% for the M5. For CY 2003, 7.2% for the M3 and 3.1% for the M5.
My guess is that AMG numbers would probably be no higher.
The numbers speak for themselves, and suggest that few sedan buyers are interested in getting as much sport as they possibly can. Rather, 95+% of buyers want some mix of sport and luxury. If their preference is a little more sport (but not ultimate sport), they'll buy a non-M BMW; if they want a little less, they'll buy a non-AMG MB or a Lexus.
IMHO there is no "right" or "wrong" when it comes to the ideal tradeoff between sport and luxury. It comes down to personal preference. Merc1 seems to think that MB presents the ideal balance between sport and luxury. A BMW owner thinks BMW presents the ideal balance. Each is right with respect to their own personal preference. But neither has the right to decide what is right for everyone.
Oct 24, 2005 (9:32 am)
there is an interesting article over at Autoweek.com about the upcoming LS.
the designer mentions a couple of points. first they want the new LS to
have more sporting character and the second is how they are trying
to move Lexus from a luxury brand to a prestige brand. coming from the
guy who is designing the car this says quite a bit. first he is acknowledging
that the LS is not completely reaching the target audience Lexus wants and
second that BMW and MB are still considered higher up on the automotive
#10798 of 24723 Re: sport [syswei]
Oct 24, 2005 (9:33 am)
INHO there is no "right" or "wrong" when it comes to the ideal tradeoff between sport and luxury.
I totally agree and would never argue that point. But the basis of my contention goes back to Oac saying…
…I'd argue that the word *sport* and the cars we debate on this forum - S, 7, A8 and LS - do not belong.
And the ultimate dis by Lexusguy…
Compared to the Maser's Ferrari V8 and F1 gearbox, the BMW is hardly an "ultimate" anything.
…because if I recall correctly, the reviews of the Quattroporte’s handling weren’t exactly glowing, plus the high revving engine and sequential gearbox in that thing don’t even belong on street cars in my opinion. BMW and Mercedes have the best formula for real-world engines.
BMW doesn’t claim to be the ultimate LUXURY car, just the ultimate DRIVING machine with regard to SEDANS (it also applies to the SUVs), which is an accolade created not by themselves, rather by their buyers long ago. And compared with most of the real-world sedans in production, it is right on the money.
#10799 of 24723 Re: Nice. Waking up to nonsense on a Monday morning [designman]
Oct 24, 2005 (9:37 am)
Some of the 7-series drivers I get behind are as conservative and slow as it gets. So I'd beg to differ. I have no doubt the 7 handles real well and better than an LS but I doubt people bought it just for that reason.
#10800 of 24723 Re: Nice. Waking up to nonsense on a Monday morning [ljflx]
Oct 24, 2005 (9:39 am)
If they are that slow and conservative, yet want the space and the luxury, maybe BMW should come out with a 725--the platinum slug.
#10801 of 24723 Re: Nice. Waking up to nonsense on a Monday morning [ljflx]
Oct 24, 2005 (9:47 am)
Some of the 7-series drivers I get behind are as conservative and slow as it gets.
I’ve driven behind people in 911 Turbos who clog traffic. That’s not the point. There are plenty of slow-driving old people who love BMWs because the ride feels taught and secure to them. I’ve said this long ago and I’ll say it again, a car with a sportier suspension is also safer vehicle, and plenty of slow-driving people know it and feel it.
#10802 of 24723 Re: Nice. Waking up to nonsense on a Monday morning [designman]
Oct 24, 2005 (9:53 am)
Not only do you guys not appreciate what a sport sedan is, I doubt whether you even know what it is. The closest some of you guys have come to acknowledging the existence of a sport sedan is by saying it makes your teeth rattle...
The 7 is the sport sedan in this class and the A8 is right behind it...
Designman: I'll second Len and say you probably started Monday on a sour note How so ? We Lexicans (your word) don't understand or know what sport is ??? Now let me turn the question around: can you define for us what *sport* is ?
Oh, just this past Saturday I was out to a BMW shop driving one of the ultimate sport sedans they have, a 330i, with SP, run-flats, low profile tires, fully sport-tuned car. Retailed at $45K and change. That was a sporty car, small, nimble, tuned to the heavens for sportiness...very very nice ride, taut and wound so tight I thought the steering was going to snap in my fingers... I put it through its paces.... uphills, twisties, straightaways, etc... my average speed on the test drive was ~80mph (higher in some places). Loved the car, but not the price. Just for the heck of it, took out an equally tuned IS350 with the 18" low-profile tires. Well, I wish you'd seen me in these two cars on the roads, you'd understand why I was grinnng from ear to ear... Not the sign of someone who doesn't know sporty cars, eh ???
Now a 7-series is sporty ???? Ditto an A8 ??? Based on what ? a 19" wheel package ? A SWB trim ? Geez, let's see why someone wants to spend $80 large on a full-size family sedan because its sporty ??? That's the realm of Porsche's and M3/M5/645i/Z etc...
Sorry if you are having a bad morning... how can I make it better ???
#10803 of 24723 Re: Nice. Waking up to nonsense on a Monday morning [oac]
Oct 24, 2005 (10:10 am)
Sorry if you are having a bad morning... how can I make it better ???
Just agree with me… hmm… nope, on second thought, just keep debating, it’s no fun hitting a tennis ball back and forth against a wall
can you define for us what *sport* is?
Yeah I will do it later on… gotta get out of here. Keep in mind, you can’t compare any car in this class to the smaller cars. You can only compare them to each other. These cars are literally two-ton lizzies.
For starters, go behind any BMW and observe the rear wheel camber. They have a healthy (sporty) dose of negative camber. This is most easily observed on the X5 because of its ground clearance and large wheels.
(Some may ask, what’s negative camber? When viewed from behind the car, the top of the wheels tilt inward like the sides of the letter A.)
#10804 of 24723 Re: Nice. Waking up to nonsense on a Monday morning [designman]
Oct 24, 2005 (10:21 am)
Designman, over on the 2007 Lexus LS board, we're still waiting for your esteemed opinion on the styling of the LF-Sh. A great look at the car can be seen at http://lexus.jp/ms/ , click "LF-SH" at the top, then "movie" at the bottom and finally one of the choices under "booth" on the left.
Oct 24, 2005 (10:22 am)
The Japanese are known for being very Modest...
BMW is what it is a Drivers Car ...If luxury is what you want buy Lexus if you want a Drivers Car...buy BMW
MB is a Luxury car that is not very reliable...If you want an expensive car with lots of prestige and state of the art features that often work, buy MB...If you want Luxury and Reliability..With state of the art Audio, Ride, Quiet and interior...buy Lexus.