Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#10791 of 24723 Re: Nice. Waking up to nonsense on a Monday morning [ljflx]
Oct 24, 2005 (8:07 am)
You must be in a bad mood today.
Nah, just stirring the sauce, making sure the sahzeeches don't stick to the bottom of the pot.
Let's add up the volume of those car sales in the segment and see if we get over 5%.
#10792 of 24723 Re: Nice. Waking up to nonsense on a Monday morning [designman]
Oct 24, 2005 (8:19 am)
Not my job. Let someone disprove it. But you have about 80,000 cars in the segment so you need to be north of 4,000. Wherever it lands it'll still be a tiny minority.
Hey - you went BMW and those resales blow away Audi and MB.
#10793 of 24723 Re: Nice. Waking up to nonsense on a Monday morning [ljflx]
Oct 24, 2005 (8:42 am)
Well, the 7 alone did 12,773 YTD in September. That's approximately 16%.
#10794 of 24723 Re: Nice. Waking up to nonsense on a Monday morning [designman]
Oct 24, 2005 (8:44 am)
That is hardly a tuned car or a true sports sedan.
#10795 of 24723 Re: Nice. Waking up to nonsense on a Monday morning [ljflx]
Oct 24, 2005 (8:54 am)
I knew you would say something like that. I beg to differ. Read the reviews. The 7 is the sport sedan in this class and the A8 is right behind it. And when talking "tuning" throw the suspensions in there not just the engines. As a matter of fact, to the pure driver the suspension/steering is the most important part. MB does power, BMW does suspension and steering. Ask any 7 owner why they chose it over MB and Lexus and you will get one answer across the board... it's the ride.
BMW does sport. Even the X3 ride blows away every SUV IMO with the excetion of the FX and Cayenne S close behind. And soon they will have a crossover, minivan, or whatever you want to call it, and I GUARANTEE it will blow away everything in its class when it comes to the sport ride. Furthermore, it will be the first vehicle in that class to even have the sport ride.
Oct 24, 2005 (9:13 am)
YTD through September, 5.7% of 3-series sales are of the M3, and .014% of 5-series sales are of the M5. They don't even make a M7, of course.
The numbers are somewhat unfair as presented as I believe both are based on the old platforms. So looking back at CY 2004, it was 7.4% for the M3 and 0.7% for the M5. For CY 2003, 7.2% for the M3 and 3.1% for the M5.
My guess is that AMG numbers would probably be no higher.
The numbers speak for themselves, and suggest that few sedan buyers are interested in getting as much sport as they possibly can. Rather, 95+% of buyers want some mix of sport and luxury. If their preference is a little more sport (but not ultimate sport), they'll buy a non-M BMW; if they want a little less, they'll buy a non-AMG MB or a Lexus.
IMHO there is no "right" or "wrong" when it comes to the ideal tradeoff between sport and luxury. It comes down to personal preference. Merc1 seems to think that MB presents the ideal balance between sport and luxury. A BMW owner thinks BMW presents the ideal balance. Each is right with respect to their own personal preference. But neither has the right to decide what is right for everyone.
Oct 24, 2005 (9:32 am)
there is an interesting article over at Autoweek.com about the upcoming LS.
the designer mentions a couple of points. first they want the new LS to
have more sporting character and the second is how they are trying
to move Lexus from a luxury brand to a prestige brand. coming from the
guy who is designing the car this says quite a bit. first he is acknowledging
that the LS is not completely reaching the target audience Lexus wants and
second that BMW and MB are still considered higher up on the automotive
#10798 of 24723 Re: sport [syswei]
Oct 24, 2005 (9:33 am)
INHO there is no "right" or "wrong" when it comes to the ideal tradeoff between sport and luxury.
I totally agree and would never argue that point. But the basis of my contention goes back to Oac saying…
…I'd argue that the word *sport* and the cars we debate on this forum - S, 7, A8 and LS - do not belong.
And the ultimate dis by Lexusguy…
Compared to the Maser's Ferrari V8 and F1 gearbox, the BMW is hardly an "ultimate" anything.
…because if I recall correctly, the reviews of the Quattroporte’s handling weren’t exactly glowing, plus the high revving engine and sequential gearbox in that thing don’t even belong on street cars in my opinion. BMW and Mercedes have the best formula for real-world engines.
BMW doesn’t claim to be the ultimate LUXURY car, just the ultimate DRIVING machine with regard to SEDANS (it also applies to the SUVs), which is an accolade created not by themselves, rather by their buyers long ago. And compared with most of the real-world sedans in production, it is right on the money.
#10799 of 24723 Re: Nice. Waking up to nonsense on a Monday morning [designman]
Oct 24, 2005 (9:37 am)
Some of the 7-series drivers I get behind are as conservative and slow as it gets. So I'd beg to differ. I have no doubt the 7 handles real well and better than an LS but I doubt people bought it just for that reason.