Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#10770 of 24726 Re: Have a look... [lexusguy]
Oct 23, 2005 (7:52 am)
Yes, you did. Dewey: "my 2003 530SP has been as faultless as any Lexus could hope to be, not to mention more enjoyable to drive!"
Nope, wrong identity that was not me who said that! Just like this other person I can tell you my BMW can out-Lexus any Lexus in terms of reliability!
Your doubts about CR data does not extend to Lexus models but only to BMW models! Interesting, dont you think??"
Can you point out an example of this?
You suggestion that the 98 BMW5 series is unreliable despite a CR rating of average reliablity!
So, I guess you're saying that all of the trouble I had with my '91 300E and '93 400SEL was all imaginary?
Show me one sentence where I boasted about MB reliability post-1983 model year?
#10771 of 24726 Re: Have a look... [lexusguy]
Oct 23, 2005 (7:58 am)
These stats mean nothing unless you tell me what years they represent! Is this just for the 97 model year?
Do these stats include the horrendously unreliable BMW 7 series?
#10772 of 24726 Re: Have a look... [dewey]
Oct 23, 2005 (8:04 am)
The stats include all BMW models, ranging from their last redesign to present.
#10773 of 24726 Re: Have a look... [dewey]
Oct 23, 2005 (8:09 am)
The Lexus-attraction for many fourm members is based on irrational FEAR! The key motivator for buying a Lexus is the fear of being stuck in a isolated dark lonely roadside or to spend a big portion of the day visiting overpriced repair shops!! Unfortunately such notions are FALSE since such events can happen to any car including non-BMWs!
It is a shame that such fears will deprive so many forum members here from driving a car that they truly and passionately want to drive.
I agree with you. I wouldn't reject the BMW 5-series based solely on reliability concerns. I rejected it based on the size of the back seat and the spartan interior. Please note that the Bimmer relevant for this forum (see listing at top) is the 7 series, not the 5. Admittedly, a properly equipped 5 is a great-driving car. But it won't carry my business associates and my teenagers in anywhere near the same comfort level in the back seat as the LS does.
Now I chose the LS over the 7 on numerous grounds, including styling, the electronics package, reliability (see both CR and JDP data - it's pretty disconcerting to say the least), and value. Oh, and I've owned a 7 series, so I can speak from real world experience as to the good and bad of the car.
Bottom line: I agree properly equipped 3 or 5 series are great driving sedans and are reasonably reliable. But the 7 can't be thrown around in any near the same manner as its two smaller cousins, and its reliability is below acceptability to me. And I dislike its looks, although that's just IMO.
The S is the only car I rejected in this class based solely on reliability. And I'll stand by that decision until MB can prove it makes a reasonably reliable car.
#10774 of 24726 Re: Have a look... [lexusguy]
Oct 23, 2005 (8:09 am)
In other words what you are saying is consistent with what I have been repetitively saying all along:
BMW3/5 series are not unreliable cars and cannot be proven to be unreliable based on statistics.
The only way you can prove BMW as unreliable is if you add in the 7 series and x5 models.
Show me a post where I boasted about the reliability of any other BMW than the BMW3/5 series?
#10775 of 24726 Re: Have a look... [garyh1]
Oct 23, 2005 (8:38 am)
Now I chose the LS over the 7 on numerous grounds
I would have made the same choice! But in my case I have a bias towards smaller cars since I really do not need the space.
Since the BMW 7 series is relevant for this forum, I will respectfully withdraw from this forum since defending the reliability of the 7 series would be Alamo-like.
#10776 of 24726 Re: Have a look... [dewey]
Oct 23, 2005 (8:42 am)
defending the reliability of the 7 series would be Alamo-like
Reliability isn't everything, even to a Lexus owner. High on my personal priority list is luxury.
#10777 of 24726 Re: Have a look... [dewey]
Oct 23, 2005 (10:42 am)
I will respectfully withdraw from this forum since defending the reliability of the 7 series would be Alamo-like.
Please don't leave...we need the input of BMW enthusiasts here! And like syswei says, reliability isn't everything (although it's high on my personal list). How about defending the 7 on its status as the "Ultimate Driving Machine" amongst its direct competitors?
In any case, I'll personally continue to enjoy your posts about BMW in general and the 5 in particular in the Luxury Performance Sedans forum.
#10778 of 24726 Re: Have a look... [garyh1]
Oct 23, 2005 (11:03 am)
This is just imho but the title of the forum is "marques" not "models"...it really sounds more like the "brands" should be under discussion, not just the 7/LS/S etc.
#10779 of 24726 Re: Dewey et al [syswei]
Oct 23, 2005 (11:43 am)
Actually I'm glad that some BMW fans have joined the forum. Welcome! When I see MB fans repeatedly deride Lexus for not being sporty enough for their tastes, I always wonder, why are these guys not BMW fans?
Thats because Mercedes has always been in the middle of a BMW and a Lexus in terms of sportiness. Most Mercedes buyers don't want the full on sportiness of a BMW, but they don't want the Toyota/Buick like drive/feel of the any Lexus outside of the new GS/IS either. There is always more control in the German car or more importantly the feel of more control than you get in Lexus' core models like the LS and ES. Now the GS and IS are sportier models supposedly chasing after BMW, but they don't hit the mark there either.
BTW, I like all three German luxury car makes.