Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#10760 of 24726 Re: Dewey, my BMW brother [syswei]
Oct 22, 2005 (6:18 pm)
Thanks for showing the VDS ratings for individual models. I missed them since I only looked at some examples for 2003-2004 models...duh, there is no 3 year record for those! I take back my statement about JDP not proving VDS data by model; they obviously do.
I'd say you have now provided "statistics" to back the Lexus superior reliability claims against even the 5-series - at least as of the 2002 models, and Lexus superior initial quality even in 2005.
Of course, now we can go back to arguing why JDP studies aren't valid, etc. As I recall, one argument is something like German car buyers are pickier than Japanese car buyers, so they report more problems to JDP. I for one don't buy that for a New York[/Munich/Tokyo] minute.
#10761 of 24726 Re: Dewey, my BMW brother [designman]
Oct 22, 2005 (6:37 pm)
Listen man, Iím rooting for you but itís like cheering for Davey Crockett at the Alamo.
Yeah but the Alamo is still in Texas, right?
#10762 of 24726 Re: Have a look... [bdr127]
Oct 22, 2005 (6:59 pm)
Before I purchased the LS430, I was aware of the maintenance costs for the periodic inspections and fluid changes. I made those costs part of my purchase decision. I agree that it would be nice if they were free, but that's not enuf incentive to make me switch brands.
#10763 of 24726 Re: Have a look... [dewey]
Oct 23, 2005 (3:33 am)
More than 15% of owners of '97 5 series have problems with cooling, electrical, and power equipment, and there are 5 catergories with a 5-10% problem rate. The fact that the '97 5 can score this badly and not get the black X does not say to me that '97 5s are reliable. They arent. Ask a BMW dealer. What it says to me is that by the 8 year point, most cars have fallen apart, so the 5 is not all that much worse than other '97 models.
Compare those scores to a '97 Q45. (There is no '97 GS data to use). The Q has a 5-10% problem rate with suspension, and apparently some brakes problems. Thats it. Every other catergory was pretty much perfect. Thats a reliable car. When you consider the fact that Lexus generally does better than Infiniti on reliability, its pretty hard to compare BMW to Lexus.
Additionally JD power 4-5yr LTD for the 5 is 4\5 for mechanical, 3\5 for body and interior, and 3\5 for features. The '98 GS, its initial year on the market, received perfect scores in all three catergories on the LTD study. You love to point out that the GX scored badly on its first year. Show me another Lexus model that did, I can point out plenty of BMWs that did besides the 5.
#10764 of 24726 Re: Have a look... [lexusguy]
Oct 23, 2005 (5:20 am)
The fact that the '97 5 can score this badly and not get the black X does not say to me that '97 5s are reliable.
The fact is the 97 BMW 5 series does not have below-average reliability based on CR stats. Your doubts about CR data does not extend to Lexus models but only to BMW models! Interesting, dont you think??
When you consider the fact that Lexus generally does better than Infiniti on reliability, its pretty hard to compare BMW to Lexus.
I feel like a broken record because I repeated this point at least a dozen times within the last 24 hours in this forum:
I did not say BMWs are equivalent to the reliablity of a Lexus! I said BMW reliability is not as notorious as you are presenting it!
Pardon my following generalization:
The Lexus-attraction for many fourm members is based on irrational FEAR! The key motivator for buying a Lexus is the fear of being stuck in a isolated dark lonely roadside or to spend a big portion of the day visiting overpriced repair shops!! Unfortunately such notions are FALSE since such events can happen to any car including non-BMWs!
It is a shame that such fears will deprive so many forum members here from driving a car that they truly and passionately want to drive.
#10765 of 24726 Re: Have a look... [dewey]
Oct 23, 2005 (6:39 am)
"I did not say BMWs are equivalent to the reliablity of a Lexus! I said BMW reliability is not as notorious as you are presenting it!"
Yes, you did. Dewey: "my 2003 530SP has been as faultless as any Lexus could hope to be, not to mention more enjoyable to drive!"
"Your doubts about CR data does not extend to Lexus models but only to BMW models! Interesting, dont you think??"
Can you point out an example of this? The only Lexus that has ever gotten a bad mark from CR is the '03 GX. I'm not disputing that it got one. The difference between the GX, and the E46 5 series, is that it took Lexus one year to fix every problem. The GX is now rated perfect. It took BMW four years to get the 5 series to have above average reliability, and even though the '01s are considered "above average", owners still have a lot more problems than owners of '98 initial year Lexus GS.
It took Audi 5 years to get the A4 up to average, and the '02s dropped below average. It took BMW 6 years to get the 7 series up to average, and the '02s dropped below average. As I said before, the time to buy German is the end of a model cycle.
"The key motivator for buying a Lexus is the fear of being stuck in a isolated dark lonely roadside or to spend a big portion of the day visiting overpriced repair shops!! Unfortunately such notions are FALSE"
So, I guess you're saying that all of the trouble I had with my '91 300E and '93 400SEL was all imaginary? Perhaps I hallucinated wasting.. lets see.. 30 hours between 1994 and 1996 taking my S to the shop? A lot of us Lexus drivers come from nightmare relationships with German cars. Believe it or not, we're not terribly interested in going back.
Between 1996 and 2005, I have wasted a grand total of zero hours at the shop.
#10766 of 24726 Re: Dewey, my BMW brother [garyh1]
Oct 23, 2005 (6:57 am)
I posted the Consumer reports ratings of dependability for ALL BMW, LEXUS, and Mercedes....(going back to 97) Lexus all Red checks FOR ALL MODELS except for one suv model in only one year....2003...
BMWs best...The five series....Going back to 97 ...3 Red checks...Total.
Mercedes ALL BLACK Xs...On all models for all years back to 97 with one exception in 98 or 99
#10767 of 24726 Re: Dewey, my BMW brother [dewey]
Oct 23, 2005 (7:03 am)
In San Antonio Texas...Just a small portion of a wall or two is left...of the orginal fort....You could say What is Left of the Alamo is still in Texas.
#10769 of 24726 Re: Have a look... [dewey]
Oct 23, 2005 (7:49 am)
"Your suggestion that the the 97 BMW 5 series is unreliable while the CR says it is reliable!"
The actual scores for each item on the BMW are lousy. As I said before, the fact that they are not enough to drag it into the below average catergory simply means that most 8 year old cars are lousy. These tags ultimately say very little. This chart is a little more effective.