Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#10752 of 24723 Re: Have a look... [dewey]
Oct 22, 2005 (5:00 pm)
I think it is long overdue that this "BMW unreliability myth bubble" should burst! In fact this myth is about the only justification in buying a Lexus.
What myth? It is a fact that Lexus is more reliable than BMW and BMW more reliable than MB.
Try going here http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/ratings/vehicles/FindJdAwards.jsp
and putting in some 2002 or earlier (for long-term reliability stats) Lexus, BMW, and MB vehicles, and some 2005 (for initial quality stats) Lexus, BMW, and MB vehicles.
After you're done, try saying its all a myth and keeping a straight face.
#10754 of 24723 Dewey, my BMW brother
Oct 22, 2005 (5:23 pm)
Listen man, Iím rooting for you but itís like cheering for Davey Crockett at the Alamo. Just be happy that you know and appreciate what the ultimate driving machine is. These guys are going to stat you to death. Now hightail it out the back door and get back to glorious switchbacks of Tennessee.
#10755 of 24723 Re: Dewey, my BMW brother [designman]
Oct 22, 2005 (6:12 pm)
LOL! Designman, you crack me up.
In fairness, syswei I think you're missing dewey's position that surveys (like the JD Powers 3 year Vehicle Dependability Studies (VDS) rankings) are of the whole range of models from each manufacturer, and thus he believes the problems with certain BMW models dragged down all of BMW. Unfortunately, it seems JDP doesn't list their VDS findings by model (except for the best-3-in-class, where the LS430 wins every year and BMW never appears), so it can't be used to make the argument.
But the CR ratings by model are certainly relevant. As you reported, the 7 clearly falls behind the LS. But the 5 does better than the 7.
#10756 of 24723 Re: Have a look... [oac]
Oct 22, 2005 (6:33 pm)
I have a 97 E39 (528) 5 spd with 132K on the clock. Never done a thing to it except normal maintenance. I still haven't found anything out there that I think is "better' in the LPS class. I would have bought a new GS if Lexus had been even remotely serious about anyone but front seat passengers riding in it and providing even a minimal trunk. Lots of wasted room in that 190" car.
#10757 of 24723 Re: Dewey, my BMW brother [garyh1]
Oct 22, 2005 (6:44 pm)
certain BMW models dragged down all of BMW
A somewhat valid point if you're a customer for one of the more reliable models. If you happen to want a full-size luxury sedan, though...the 7 appears deficient in reliability terms.
In any event, using the link I provided earlier,
shows the following (where 5 is the best possible score)
2002 VDS "overall dependability"
2005 IQS "overall quality"
Whether you take the average of all cars, or all cars+SUVs, in a company's lineup, or exclude the worst model from each company's lineup (based on what justification I don't know), the numbers are pretty clear.
#10758 of 24723 Dewey et al
Oct 22, 2005 (6:51 pm)
Actually I'm glad that some BMW fans have joined the forum. Welcome! When I see MB fans repeatedly deride Lexus for not being sporty enough for their tastes, I always wonder, why are these guys not BMW fans?
BMW deserves plaudits for being the most reliable German luxury sedan company, and for being to many "the ultimate driving machine". I can certainly understand some people valuing sport and being willing to give up a little reliability. I just happen not to be one of them, but its a purely personal choice. I do respect BMW for what it offers. I even like the styling, overall.
But trying to say that Lexus reliability (vs BMW) is a "myth" would be like me trying to say that BMW's sportiness (vs Lexus) is a "myth". It just isn't supported by the facts.
#10759 of 24723 Re: Dewey et al [syswei]
Oct 22, 2005 (7:18 pm)
But trying to say that Lexus reliability (vs BMW) is a "myth"
That was not what I was saying!
Where in this forum did I say BMWs are more reliable than Lexus?
As I repeated many times the claims made here in this forum about horrid reliability problems for the BMW3/5 series are bogus!
I cant understand the following logic of most forum members here:
1)Lexus is #1, therefore BMW reliability will cause you to be stuck on roadsides!
2)BMW7 reliability sucks, therefore the reliability of all BMWs sucks!
The above logic is nothing more than a fictional myth!
#10760 of 24723 Re: Dewey, my BMW brother [syswei]
Oct 22, 2005 (7:18 pm)
Thanks for showing the VDS ratings for individual models. I missed them since I only looked at some examples for 2003-2004 models...duh, there is no 3 year record for those! I take back my statement about JDP not proving VDS data by model; they obviously do.
I'd say you have now provided "statistics" to back the Lexus superior reliability claims against even the 5-series - at least as of the 2002 models, and Lexus superior initial quality even in 2005.
Of course, now we can go back to arguing why JDP studies aren't valid, etc. As I recall, one argument is something like German car buyers are pickier than Japanese car buyers, so they report more problems to JDP. I for one don't buy that for a New York[/Munich/Tokyo] minute.
#10761 of 24723 Re: Dewey, my BMW brother [designman]
Oct 22, 2005 (7:37 pm)
Listen man, Iím rooting for you but itís like cheering for Davey Crockett at the Alamo.
Yeah but the Alamo is still in Texas, right?