Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#10643 of 24726 Re: Copying isn't the culprit [designman]
Oct 16, 2005 (5:27 am)
Amazing the agreement you'll get when you say that the Germans have done most of the copying. Way to go, now the Lexus guys are going to say that the S-Class is a knockoff of a Bentley to excuse the LS430 I guess.
I truly hate to disagree with you on design because usually you're right on the money, but there is no way I can go for this. The Japanese will copy any and everything that is a success and something things that aren't. Mazda's original Miata was the most shameless Lotus Elan copy the world had ever seen. I mean the car was an exact duplicate. It took a German brand 15 more years to do something even close to that, VW's Jetta. I don't ever recall MB/BMW/Audi ever copying an enitre body from anyone, especially the Japanese in the way Lexus did with the LS430/W140 S-Class.
The difference with the above pics is that no one is going to mistake a Benz for a Bentley or a Acura for a Benz. Why? Because though their butts may be similar they aren't whole body style copies like the LS430 is compared to the W140 S-Class. That is where similarities end between what the German automotive industry has done regarding design vs the Japanese. The Japanese take whole bodies and clone them while others (including the Germans) take an single trait or theme and run with it, in some cases. Big, big difference.
In looking at those pics of the Bentley its rear isn't even the same as the other cars because the trunklid doesn't sit on top of the bodywork clamshell style like on the Maybach and S-Class.
All manufacturers have not copied each other either. IMO, that is nothing more than an excuse to excuse the Japanese from their cluelessness of design and need to copy everyone else. Mercedes, BMW, Audis and Jaguars are distinctive cars known the world over and it would all but impossible to confuse one for the other. You put a LS430 next to a 1999 S500 and the to the uninitiated the two cars looks more alike than any BMW looks like any Mercedes or any Mercedes looks like a Bentley or Audi, not matter what their butts look like.
Whats even worse is that now you have the Koreans who will copy any and everything they can. They've copied Mercedes' grille, the Lexus RX330, Mercedes ML and countless other European designs. Wait, it gets worse...you have the Japanase copying the Japanese also. Look at a Mazda 6 and a Acura TSX, check out their grilles. Ridiculous. This inbred copying is why the Lexus GS and Maxima have been called twins.
Sorry, but the there no way the German makes have ever taken copying to such a level as the Japanese and now Koreans. The German cars for better or worse are still far more original and distinctive than Asian cars. There is no comparison to the level of copying the Japanese have done over the years.
If there is one thing the Japanese have a bigger legacy than the Germans, it is in the art of copying...something the German can't even begin to match.
First the Aston-Martin incident and now this? What is going on designman?
#10644 of 24726 Re: Copying isn't the culprit [merc1]
Oct 16, 2005 (8:36 am)
"Look at a Mazda 6 and a Acura TSX, check out their grilles."
Thats definitely something that Mazda and Acura need to work out. They're both trying to claim that the 5-point grill is their "signature". Hardly. That grill has been all over Japan since basically ever. Probably the worst Japanese grill in recent memory, even worse than the Nissan "cheese grater", is Honda's new "snaggle tooth" thing they started with the '03 Accord and has now made its way on to the Civic. Ugh.
#10645 of 24726 Re: Copying isn't the culprit [merc1]
Oct 16, 2005 (8:56 am)
For years people have been challenging you to show us another Lexus that is a direct copy of an MB. You've come up empty. The S-class copy was conceded 4+ years ago. Get over it already. It's obvious that car really burns you as you've been ranting about it for as long as I've been on Edmunds. We all agree with you on the LS. Time to move on and get off that horse.
Maybe I'm in the minority on this but the front ends of Jags and BMW's have looked alike to me in the past.
Oct 16, 2005 (1:50 pm)
Amazing the agreement you'll get when you say that the Germans have done most of the copying.
I knew you would put an infrared lock on that. I’m sorry I even said it because you took it out of context and I don’t feel like elaborating… takes too much work and it’s not that important. Just put it in perspective… in my opinion the Americans have been the most creative but where does it get them when considering high-end luxury marques?
Don’t get hung up on copying, don’t place too much significance on it, and please don’t misinterpret what I was trying to say. If you re-read my post you will see that that Japanese styling gets no pass from me. You once told me that I am tough on styling. You were right and I’m just doing what I do. When everything is added up, the Germans score a lot higher on my styling score sheet.
That said, we have to focus on the present. MB is going to have to answer for their next round of styling. The S is a potpourri of elements we have seen before and I think you know it. There isn’t a creative stroke in that vehicle. Furthermore, the current trend is Japanese styling and somehow you have to make sense of it.
But I empathize with you and welcome you to the DGCFC… Disappointed German Car Fans Club. As a BMW fan I have a four-year jump on you. You may as well roll with it unless of course you really think the S has something going, but something tells me this is not the case. This doesn’t mean we have to drink Lexus Kool Aid either. What it means is that you can become a cantankerous ol’ SOB like me and moan about everything as long as it deserves it.
Brother Merc, bless you, and welcome to the DGCFC. Let’s just comfort each other in addition to our forsaken brethren. Personally, I find inspiration and significance in one of your statements which, in my opinion, is one of your most profound…
“Other things are more important to me than having a Mercedes-Benz…”
And when you think about it… don’t get crazy, just think about it… maybe Camp Lexus is actually one step ahead of us? (no, NO-O-O!!! I didn't say that!!!)
#10647 of 24726 Re: Copying isn't the culprit [ljflx]
Oct 16, 2005 (1:56 pm)
I can't seem to visualize any comparable Jag's and BMW's... which models are you refering to?
Oct 16, 2005 (1:58 pm)
I am happy Lexus Isn't so concerned about being politically correct it doesn't feel the need to put it's LOGO and NAME on it's car the same way the Germans do...
I like the way Lexus does it.
Nothing can cheapen the look of an LS ...
A broken down Mercedes or BMW sitting on the side of the road ...That is cheapening....
Oct 16, 2005 (2:00 pm)
I think smoot sleek and HUGE is a better discription...I wonder if it still has less trunk space then the LS (20 Cu. Ft.)
#10650 of 24726 Re: Copying isn't the culprit [designman]
Oct 16, 2005 (2:03 pm)
The Bently definately has the nicest butt.
#10651 of 24726 Re: Copying isn't the culprit [michael_mattox]
Oct 16, 2005 (2:16 pm)
Can't argue with you Michael. When I get dressed up (and that's not often anymore) I like a lot of starch in my shirt. As we know, Bentley has beaucoup starch. However, I am tickled by XG350, and as I said I like the butts of the others too. The question is, what do we do if Bentley goes to the Honda mug? Hmm, maybe I'll just wear a grey t-shirt with the tux at black-tie events.
#10652 of 24726 Re: Copying isn't the culprit [designman]
Oct 16, 2005 (3:49 pm)
Speaking of butts, has anyone noticed a similarity between the Ford 500/Mercury Montego and the S Class M/B?