Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#10347 of 24723 Re: Merc1 [pablo_l]
Aug 20, 2005 (10:57 am)
While it is encouraging that MB has done much better in the 90-day surveys lately, the real survey and the only survey the survey folks care about is the 3-year dependability survey. I too think that it gives a much better picture of how a car will hold up over time.
My understanding of the ADAC is that everything from flat tires to running out of gas counts as a "breakdown" to them also, though those things are no fault of the car itself. I'm not entirely sure of what their criteria is.
BMW doing so well in this country when it comes to the 3-year surveys is IMO because if you look back to 2002, they only had one new car, the 7-Series, which as an individual model has ranked below any Mercedes I've seen as far as reliability goes, depending on the source. CR puts both the E-Class and 7-Series pretty much in the same boat. I'll be shocked if BMW can maintain their standing once the new 3,5,6 and X3 come up in the 3-Year surveys. So far that X5 and 7-Series haven't been enough to matter in the grand scheme of things I guess.
#10348 of 24723 LS Repairs...
Aug 24, 2005 (11:22 am)
I had quite the day at the Lexus dealer today..I took my 92 in for some suspension work and got quite the bill. Initially they wanted $3700..I told them absolutely not...What really bothered me was the amount of time they took to get to me once I got to the dealer. I spent nearly 40 minutes just waiting for the mechanic to come talk to me. The Service Consultant seemed clueless. Her comment regarding my surprise to the bill, "Oh well we have people who spend 9-10K on these cars all the time...It depends how much you like the car.." That statement is beyond logic. Why would you spend that sort of money on a car with a max value of $6500?? Here is what is being replaced: Upper Control Arm (Right Side) Strut Rod Bushings, Power Steering Rack, Power Steering Pressure Hose, Rear Assembly Bushings..
What is the point of shelling out $63K if the car starts to fall apart at 96K? My new LS430 will be my last Lexus. I am very disappointed in both the quality of service and the amount of issues that a babied LS has had...I only spent the money as it makes no sense to spend 30-40K trading it in on a new car. I'll just wait for the new E class Diesel that is supposed to come out next year. At least Mercedes has plenty of independant mechanics in my area..
#10349 of 24723 Re: LS Repairs... [sv7887]
Aug 24, 2005 (11:57 am)
You've got a 13-14 year old car. Even if has less than 100k miles on it, you can't really complain if you have some expensive repair bills on the way. Anything can break on a car that old. It's a piece a machiney and anything can happen to it. Some people can put 200k miles on a car and not have to replace those things. A little bit of luck can go either way. There's not many high-line 13-14 year old cars that wouldn't leave you in the same place that you are now.
What do you expect a mechanic to do? Taking a half hour or 40 minutes for them to look at your car to find out the problem doesn't seem that bad.
A lexus dealer is going to be the highest when it comes to repair and parts costs. Independent mechanics who work on Lexus' shouldn't be that hard to find. If you live anywhere near a major city, you should be able to find one.
And if you think Mercedes will be any better 13 years after it's new.....get your checkbook ready.
#10350 of 24723 Re: LS Repairs... [rjlaero]
Aug 24, 2005 (12:35 pm)
Agree. I have a friend who tried to own an SL from the '80s. It wasnt pleasant. Believe it or not dealers wont have all the '92 spec parts they need, which will probably mean ordering from Japan, which costs a lot of money.
I turned in my '96 LS in '01 with 156k on the odo. It needed around $1500 worth of service close to the 100K mark, and that was it. I also have to wonder why you are paying dealer prices for a car that ran out of warranty during Clinton's first term.
If you think a Mercedes E is going to be more reliable than a Lexus LS, you're kidding yourself.
#10351 of 24723 Re: LS Repairs... [sv7887]
Aug 24, 2005 (12:53 pm)
I'd suggest either:
- call other Lexus service locations, and get them to give you an estimate for the work that the first dealer says you need
- take the car to another Lexus service location, tell them you weren't happy with what another dealer told you you needed, and ask them to evaluate the car and give an estimate...possibly they'll find it needs less work, or the same work could end up costing less.
#10352 of 24723 Re: LS Repairs... [sv7887]
Aug 24, 2005 (2:44 pm)
I am surprised at the amount of structural work the car needs at 96k. With the electronics or the engine, I'd say sure, with a bit of bad luck it gets expensive. But control arms, bushings, steering rack?? Is it rust? If so, get rid of the car, it'll only get worse - when there's structural failure it'll probbaly keep coming, at least that would be my gutfeeling. As to Mercedes, I would not set my hopes too high: my wife's ML320 set us back $5k over the first 12 months immediately after the warranty ran out, but it was all electrical, AC and engine cooling stuff, nothing in the fundamental structure. I was disgusted, because to me it was obvious MB had skimped on the service and let us foot the bill for things that probably were probably close to failure on the last service or 2 under warranty, but she wants to keep the car - go figure. I told her one more high bill and I'll veto the car's entrance into the garage, and the next service is due in 1,000 miles.
This whole thing about massive bills for cars that are older than 5 years is the reason why I think my attitude of buying cars cash is flawed given the direction the car industry has taken - they don't build them to last 20 years when you take good care of them, and to be maintenance friendly in the very long term. I am going to lease going forward, and not worry about this stuff. I'd love to try to keep a car for 10 years, but with a luxury car of recent vintage it's a quixotic thing to do, I think. They're build to be leased primarily, and to extract some money out of the people that get them second hand. Collectibles they aren't designed to be.
#10353 of 24723 Re: LS Repairs... [pablo_l]
Aug 24, 2005 (3:40 pm)
That's why 4-5 year old Euopean cars are really a dime a dozen when they get even the hint of being out of warranty 50k miles. Repair bills can easily top 5 grand on some of these cars. And when a car gets 3X that age like that Lexus, a $3500 repair bill on a 13 year old car isn't surprising.
#10354 of 24723 Re: LS Repairs... [pablo_l]
Aug 24, 2005 (6:48 pm)
Quite frankly, considering the amount of work that the dealer says needs to be done, I think $3500 is pretty reasonable. A dent in the front of my Jag cost $4000 to fix. Fortunately I didnt have to pay for it as it wasnt my fault. A new oil seal and new rear shocks for my '96 LS cost $1500 from my Lexus dealer. If you want cars that last and are cheap to fix long term, you shouldnt be buying a luxury car, period. New parts for Acuras, Infinitis, Audis, BMWs, Mercedes, and Jaguars are just as much money. For example, the supercharger on my XKR failed. If it wasnt still under warranty at the time, I would be driving sans supercharger, as a new one would set me back almost $7000.
Aug 24, 2005 (7:31 pm)
I've owned these high end cars for a Very long time. To clarify, I had to wait TWO Days for a proper diagnosis and only after I telephoned the dealer twice...This much work on a car with this mileage is clearly unacceptable. Being left wandering around the service bays for 40 minutes is also unacceptable especially after I called in advance for an appointment. I don't spend $100/hr on service for charity purposes you know..$1500 for rear shocks sounds extremely excessive. I had that done on my '92 (Rear shocks only) for $335..There is a reason Lexus dealers are one of the most profitable in the industry.
Lexus peddles its product on quality. Clearly this is not the case. I don't know what everyone is thinking here but High End Marque and Long term durability should NOT be mutually exclusive. Having driven for over 30 years I have never encountered something like this...Even my Buick Park Avenue did not cause these many issues. Frankly rust was not the problem here. The car is flawless otherwise.
Between my three brothers and I we've owned every High End marque ever made including Rolls Royce, Jaguar, BMW, MB, and of course Lexus. My brother's 1988 420 SE never needed any of this work done. ..I live in the Boston area and it is real hard to get any independent mechanic to work on the car. Half the time they say "Dealer only.." I've been going to the same dealer for over 15 yrs..
Part of my frustration also comes from my experience with the 2005 as well. The car's Nav system is clearly flawed and the A/C squeaks every time you turn it on..Not exactly impressive for a car with 3700 miles on it...
#10356 of 24723 Re: LS issues [sv7887]
Aug 24, 2005 (7:48 pm)
I have friends with MBs, Audis and the like with cars that would sit at the dealer for weeks. A good friend of mine has an '04 Audi A8 that needed a completely new engine. It was at the dealer a lot longer than two days.
I'm rather surprised at the problems with your '05, my '01 has been flawless, just as my '96 was. I dont know anybody with an S, 7, or A8 that didnt have at least one major problem, and I've had zero in 10 years of driving a Lexus LS. The dealer shouldnt give you any trouble about fixing them though. If they do, find another dealer. My wife's RX300 had one or two relatively minor issues, and Rahal took care of them without a problem.
Speaking from personal experience, I left M-B for Lexus in '96 because I was tired of the constant repairs, and my Benz was not 14 years old. My current XK is a heck of a lot more reliable than my XJS was, but its still had its share of problems, the supercharger I mentioned before, an airbag warning that took 2 dealer trips to fix, and it also stalled on the highway for no particular reason. All that and its a weekend car, with less than 30K on it.