Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#10278 of 24723 MB Once Again..
Aug 15, 2005 (12:30 pm)
I'd say that MB is still the top "marque" in this field. I think Rolls is far beyond most Lexus and MB buyers means. Perhaps the Rolls should be considered an Ultra High End Lux marque. Merc1 and some of the other posters are correct when they say people still aspire to owning an MB...I'm one of those people. Despite all of the bad press, I'd still be willing to buy one, and in fact will seriously consider the new S Class when it comes time to replace my new 05 LS. The sole qualifier will be the state of MB's quality at that time.
Mercedes still has the edge when it comes to allure over Lexus. People all over the world still think of MB as the Number One brand..Not everyone is as well informed as we are..I venture a guess to say that we are in the minority. Sure some people have heard about MB's quality issues, but they're still selling them at a decent clip..Keep in mind the S Class is a fairly old car now, so it really isn't fair to compare it to a recently refreshed LS430. A better comparison will come in 2006-7 with the release of the new S and LS460.
It's fair to say they've dipped in resale and quality, but it's hardly the death knell for them. It's clearly hurting their bottom line as well. But the one strength they do have is their brand name. At this moment, I'd say this is Merecedes' greatest asset. Imagine if this were some lesser brand such as Infiniti..I'd doubt they'd still manage to survive.
Competition is good for owners of all marques. Lexus is pushing MB on quality and other economics, while MB is pushing Lexus on designing cars that provoke an emotional response instead of a purely rational one. It'll be good to see what the '07 looks like..
#10279 of 24723 Re: a history question [syswei]
Aug 15, 2005 (1:40 pm)
I still remember that BMW used to sell a 735 in the US (I know that they also once had a 728, but don't know if it was sold here), but now the smallest they sell here is a 4.8 liter 750i.
BMW did not have a V8 until the early-to-mid 90's. The 3.4 liter block in 735 and 535 was the largest they had (called "big six"). For a time, they welded two "small six" 2.5 liters together to make the V12 in the old 750i in the end of 80's and early 90's. People forget that a decade and a half ago, BMW was like Acura, a performance car maker without any V8 under its name. Market perception change quickly.
#10280 of 24723 Re: a history question [brightness04]
Aug 15, 2005 (1:47 pm)
People forget that a decade and a half ago, BMW was like Acura, a performance car maker without any V8 under its name.
Thanks for the history lesson, I actually didn't know that. Maybe there is hope for Acura yet...it seems to me that people really look down on them because of the lack of a V8, but since they're supposed to have a V10 in the pipeline, maybe the view will change in time.
#10281 of 24723 Re: a history question [brightness04]
Aug 15, 2005 (2:07 pm)
Unlike Acura though the 3.5 engine revved to 9000. So even though they didn't have a V8, they had high revving performance engines. It's not market perceptions that change quickly, it's the market itself.
#10282 of 24723 Re: a history question [kdshapiro]
Aug 15, 2005 (2:23 pm)
Not sure what you are talking about. The 3.4 liter in the 735i/L delivered only 225hp. Only the Acura NSX engine revved to anywhere close to 9000rpm (7100rpm peak power to be exact) and delivered 290hp in that time frame for production cars.
#10283 of 24723 Re: MB Once Again.. [sv7887]
Aug 15, 2005 (2:30 pm)
My hat`s off to you..Always try and keep an open mind.....My delema is that my Lexus is about four yrs old and it is time for a new car...For the enthusiast imo the Mercedes or BMW have a certain mistique and the Lexus has the rest...I would get the Lexus if the new design were available as I believe the value is there..I would particularly get the H , but probably not the ultra (which I now have) as the price has soared.....I`m seriously thinking of the bmw for the next two and a half yrs, but am hesitant as I don`t understand the lease details which I think would enable me to cap the depreciation for that short a time.....This would enable Lexus to introduce the new model and then maybe get it a year after introduction...If the Lexus were to continue to increase in price to where it were to be comprably priced to Mercedes, BMW then I would have to take a new look...If say the price of gas were to be four dollars or so, that would also make me think twice about any of them...
To chime in on the financial well being of the brands, imo it is logical that if the manufacturer is financially well off the lowly customer is going to be treated better as the dealer is able to get more support from the manufacturer....You can take that to the bank...The dealer associations are very powerful with the different state legislations and they get many bills passed that limit what a consumer can sew over Everyone keep the opinions flowing Tony
#10284 of 24723 Re: a history question [brightness04]
Aug 15, 2005 (2:53 pm)
>>>BMW did not have a V8 until the early-to-mid 90's.
You mean BMW 7-series did not have V8 until 90s. First BMW V8 engine (alloy unit) was introduced in 1953 or 1954 (donít remember exactly when). BMW 502, 503, and legendary 507 (Z8 inspiration) had V8.
#10285 of 24723 Re: Lexux? [merc1] Wrong Framing [greenbelt] [merc1]
Aug 15, 2005 (3:47 pm)
The LS430 outselling the S-Class, is in part due to a price advantage. I mean take away everything else and you have a car that starts at 57K going against what was until April (S350 is entry level now) of this year a 77K car in the S430. All I'm saying is that has to account for something. How much so I don't know, but to say it doesn't matter is false.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say. . . that being an inefficient manufacturer somehow is an excuse for not selling well? The V6 S class took a five year hiatus; there was a '99 S320. I just don't get it, LS430 offers more luxury and more performance than S430 at a lower price point, somehow this excuse MB from being non-competitive?
While the ES330 is an entry-level luxury car, its mission and focus isn't really in tune with any other European or Japanese luxury car company's entry level products. In short, no one else is chasing the ES or even considers it a competitor, at least not enough of one to warrant producing such a uninvolving car.
That's patentedly false. Every manufacturer would love to have a midsize car in their lineup that can sell 100k units at $10k profit each. I30 was killed in competition; TL had to become more sporting to compete; S60/80/V70, 9-5 and A6 sell on being different (ie. accept much smaller market shares) and have wagon offerings. All these cars, plus the E class, used to occupy the ES market niche. ES simply cleaned their clock in the standard luxury sedan market, and they all have to find some theme to survive (and/or accept much smaller market shares). There are plenty mid-size car models made by the Europeans that are even less sporting than ES330; many of them are not even bothered to be brought over here simply because the ES dominance of the market. Don't tell me MB would not bring the sluggard E220 here if it could sell well in the face of ES330.
The IS and GS, where MB and Lexus are more of direct competitors,
Not true at all. IS (old model) and GS are much more sporting machines than th overwhelming majority of MB offerings in C and E class.
#10286 of 24723 Re: a history question [kga]
Aug 15, 2005 (3:49 pm)
The BMW we talk about today is the post-1970 (after the 2002ii) BMW. Before then, the Isette tricycle car was more important to BMW sales than 507 was.
#10287 of 24723 Re: Lexux? [merc1] Wrong Framing [greenbelt] [merc1] [brightness04]
Aug 15, 2005 (4:38 pm)
The only direct competition for the ES is the Volvo S80, and the now dead '96-'04 RL and I30\35. I'm pretty sure the next Volvo S80 will move upmarket and out of the ES's league. It will probably get the Yamaha V8 currently in the XC90. The success of the ES does prove that, at least in the US market, the ES is unbeatable. In Europe though, its a completely unsellable car. It would be like trying to sell the Buick Century or Lincoln Town Car in Europe - not gonna happen.