Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#10267 of 24726 Re: MB in the press [ljflx]
Aug 14, 2005 (9:47 pm)
Syswei - this is why I made the statement last year or last winter that MB would lose its throne status position in the future. I still think both BMW and Lexus will pass them in a few years.
Status is made up of many things. BMW has never, ever been as strong as Mercedes when it comes to the status cars. BMW has always been stronger than Mercedes when it comes to the bottom end. This is why these two have co-existed for years and years, with MB always having the higher postion.
BMW had the chance to knock Mercedes off with all new designs since 2002 for every sedan that they make. However when you look at it the 7-Series was too controversial to knock the S-Class off, even in the final years the S-Class outsells the 7-Series both here and worldwide. That is stauts my friend.
An even bigger drop for BMW is the new 5-Series. While I like the car well enough, it isn't nearly the class leader the old one was when it came to driving. I still think it is the best handling/driving car but the design changes have made the press go cold on it, combined with a new M from Infiniti and it hasn't been all wins like the previous 5-Series. The E-Class, while not marketed as a "sports" sedan continues to be just as popular if not more so (I haven't looked the numbers this YTD), and has placed ahead of the 5-Series in any of the comparos I've seen both compared. Do I agree with that from a driver's standpoint, no, but still the comparo was BMW's strong hold.
The 3-Series will contine its traditional ways of beating the C-Class, but this is where BMW has always been the superior car, for those who want more sport.
The only image builder that BMW has at the high-end is the 6-Series, which is far more successful than the Z8 or 8-Series ever were, but at it costs much less than they did too. The 6 and of course the M versions of the 5 and 6-Series, they've always been red-hot cars for BMW. Mercedes on the other hand has a dozen ga-ga cars to counter this and open up for more wallets and open them much wider at that.
When you look at the real high-end BMWs like the 90's 8-Series and recent Z8 BMW doesn't even begin to have the "status" of MB at the upper end, they can't even get a foothold in in the specialty markets where MB builds a lot of their image. BMW is the only one of the 3 high-end German makes that doesn't have a supercar in their lineup like MB's SLR, Porsche's Carrera GT. Even Audi has one on the drawing board.
BMW being king on the lower half and MB at the upper and overall due to much more successful high-end products like the SL and CL, is pretty much the way it has always been, and I don't see that changing. This new S-Class according to those who are into European cars and post on the pro-European boards elsewhere say the new S is poised to demolish the only high-end car BMW has, the 7-Series.
The way I see it BMW has had their chance, only Lexus remains with a chance to knock of MB. This will have to take place on a worldwide scale and it will require more than just a super LS to do it. MB has many attractive products in all sorts of niches all over the world.
Status isn't just this stuff we talk (argue) about when it comes to corporate matters, the cars have an equal part in building status and that is where the others, BMW and Lexus don't cut it at the high end, because both of them have been doing much better than MB on the corporate side for years, yet even certain everyday MB products are still in control of their market segments, both here and overseas. Not to mention all the high-end models that you see in one form or another every month somwhere being compared to this and that. That is also status.
#10268 of 24726 Re: merc1 [ljflx]
Aug 14, 2005 (10:11 pm)
It's like unneeded bad advertising. On the opposite end of the spectrum I never believed Audi had a real acceleration problem in the 80's yet all those news reports took their toll heavily.
Yeah that was really something, and it was based on a problem a lot of Americans still have, not knowing how to drive. Right after that everything from Camrys to 300Es were claimed to have the same problem, yet not one car from any brand was found to have a default. Such nonsense nearly killed Audi in this country. They sold a little of 12K in 1992-1993 I think, but they hung in there. Now I think their problem is exposure, and of course bad rep in the reliability surveys. We were having a discussion about Audi's dealerships on another board. They never seem to have one in the same areas with MB/BMW/Cadillac/Lexus you know the usual "dealers row" area of your average metro area. I think Audi has an exposure problem that is just as big as their reliabilty problem. I actually think Audi could sell more cars if they had more dealers in strategic places, or at least in more places where other luxury cars brands are represented.
#10269 of 24726 Re: sos [stroudman]
Aug 14, 2005 (10:34 pm)
I have had to acquire a taste for the new S, but I can say I have gone from thinking it was o.k. to liking it pretty well. I've seen better photos more recently, and I guess seeing it in the flesh will determine my real opinion. Late jan early feb is what I'm hearing for availablity, plus the saks 5th ave., or whatever limited edition cars they're making only 40 or so of, that will be sold in october, if I remember correctly. The 450 is either mid model intro for '07, or maybe '08. I'm excited about the car, and we're starting to take orders for them, which is good to see. I'm not too proud to admit that I'm a little nervous about all the new tech going into this car...I hope it's not a repeat of the 220.
Well I like everything except that rear fender arch, so I too will have to see the car in person before making final judgement. In some pics it isn't as bad as in others. Of course darker colors hide it, but a Mercedes has to look good in silver so that is no good if they have to be in darker colors all the time. The interior appear to show a level of quality and detailing not seen in any Benz since the previous SL or W140 S-Class (at the beginning of its production, not the latter years). Yes it appears that the S500 will be a 90K car to start with 100K easily attainable, with the 335hp S450 being closer to 79-81K.
#10270 of 24726 Re: sos [merc1]
Aug 15, 2005 (3:06 am)
Yes it appears that the S500 will be a 90K car to start with 100K easily attainable, with the 335hp S450 being closer to 79-81K.
OK, I'm too lazy to go look on other boards...what are the major innovations that the new S is going to introduce (not counting the fenders )? Stroudman talked about the car being loaded with high tech.
#10271 of 24726 Re: Merc1 [merc1]
Aug 15, 2005 (5:53 am)
For the money one pays for MB, even one, ie. me, gets stranded by the side of the road is unacceptable. And let me tell you, the dealer didn't treat me nice either. That's why Bussinessweek says MB is now a "quality has-been". Please read the article "Dark Days at Daimler" in BW before you post again. We all want MB to get back to "one of teh world's most-admired premium rands" again.
#10272 of 24726 Re: MB in the press [merc1]
Aug 15, 2005 (6:38 am)
Survey after survey says MB's status is nowhere what it USED to be and you are the only one that stills says it's the same. Is this the power of ONE?
#10273 of 24726 Re: Lexux? [merc1] Wrong Framing [greenbelt] [merc1]
Aug 15, 2005 (7:20 am)
Have you just acknowledged that Lexus outsells Mercedes in the Luxury Sedan LS vrs S....and SUV markets....but Mercedes outsell lexus in TAXI's so they are the better company?
This is the high end Luxury Marque board...Shouldn't the Mercedes Taxis and Mercedes As and Bs and Cs...be compared to ...Fords and Chevies and Kias?
#10274 of 24726 Re: MB in the press [ctsang]
Aug 15, 2005 (7:22 am)
Disagree. I for one still believe MB is number one in status but it slipped badly and they now have challengers that are getting so close to it in stature that it may not mean much anymore. As far as I am concerned MB pushed the status advertising the past few years because it needed to re-enforce something that had slipped so much in people's perceptions. I doubt it worked and it was probably a big waste of ad money. You never saw ads pushing status so hard in the past because MB quality spoke for itself and its customers certified it by selling used cars for such super high residuals. That was true status, but those days are over.
#10275 of 24726 a history question
Aug 15, 2005 (7:28 am)
I read somewhere that back in the 60s, high-hp, high-displacement engines were fairly common, but then the high gas prices brought about by the embargo in the early 70s put an end to "gotta have a big engine".
Is all that generally true?
Do people think that if gas prices continue to head higher, big-engines will fade a bit? I still remember that BMW used to sell a 735 in the US (I know that they also once had a 728, but don't know if it was sold here), but now the smallest they sell here is a 4.8 liter 750i.
Maybe in a few years we'll look like Europe...lots of small-engined versions being sold.
Maybe high gas prices will cause some of the performance-lovers to change what they drive, and the way they drive.
#10276 of 24726 Re: MB in the press [ljflx]
Aug 15, 2005 (7:55 am)
Disagree. What was the last time you see Rolex ads by the company, not by watch dealers? For my household who own one or more Rolexes each, MB is NO LONGER number one in status. Rolls Royce is still number ONE.