Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#10188 of 24723 Re: Merc1 [oac]
Aug 12, 2005 (11:02 am)
1) You go from making $2.5bln a year to losing money in 3 years
Big trouble for sure, now explain to me what would the average customer care if MB isnt in danger of going out business any time soon?
2) Your cars are placed at the lowest end of reliability studies and customer satisfaction studies when they historically occupied the exact opposite space
Another point that has been addressed over and over. This is problem too, trouble is it isn't having this great big effect on sales like you predict each and every spring when these surveys come out. Don't you realize that for a company to keep selling cars that not everyone cares about these surveys like you guys do? I really don't see what is so hard to understand about that. Everyone doesn't kneel at the alter of the survey, other MB and a whole host of others wouldn't be able to sell another car.
3) Resale values have fallen through the floor when they were at the exact opposite end of the spectrum.
A good example of hype. Reading that you'd think that MB has lowest resale going, yet when a poster here traded in their MB they were expecting to get nothing and were pleasantly surprised. Lenn gave some very biased numbers for his area, yet this is seen as gospel. These numbers were given for the E and S-Classes, yet models like the CLK retain more of their value than most other cars on the road, including Lexus. Is MB not in the top 5 of resale of any survey around for the brand? If they are then this is not "through the floor" which implies below everyone else. MB's resales have dropped, but they aren't "though the floor".
4) MB is being crimped on all sides - higher production costs, big warranty repair costs, retention writeoff because leased cars were worth a lot less than the lease retenion values, too big a line-up to maintain successfully, etc etc.
Old news and this true of most German car companies, regarding high production costs. They all share that problem. Now the comment about MB having a lineup they can't maintain is an interesting one. Please explain. I'd love to know which Benz it is that they can't "maintain" successfully.
5) in 1999, MB beat Lexus unit sales in the U.S., 189,000 units to 185,890, but in 2005, Lexus is on track to beat MB by 41% (per post 10088)
So what? There are many factors in this. Price being but one of them. Lexus is the SUV champ and thus outsells everyone because of it. This broad statement about Lexus' sales implies that everything they sell is some sort of sales hit when we all know that isn't true.
6) MB and Lexus competed in SUVs in 1999, as they do now, yet the relative sales (cars+SUVs) have swung by 43% in Lexus' favor in the past 6 years.
Really? I still haven't seen the numbers to support this. Surely you've researched and verified this claim right? Until the effect of price is factored in and able to be measured here this is more of the same to me.
#10189 of 24723 Re: Merc1 [oac]
Aug 12, 2005 (11:09 am)
. But they are saying that some people aren't buying MB cars because they are suffering from a reputation for unreliability, compared to their historical reputation for being "bullet-proof".
This is the part I agree with, for people who are heavily into surveys. What you don't get is that not everyone is. If they were then MB wouldn't be able to get a new product launch off the ground with any success. When are you going to realize that not everyone worships surveys and uses them as the last word in their car buying decisions?
Until you can tell me what percentage of buyers actually said that these surveys turned them off from MB or any other troubled brand all this guessing about who didn't buy what is just that, guessing.
You seem to think I have this perfect image of MB, and as others have stated, I don't. I just don't share the ridicuouls exegerrations put out here, something that post doesn't do.
Generally I agree with ljflx's take on the business side, again its the notion that buyers care about such things (past reliablity surveys) is where I will never be convinced.
#10190 of 24723 Re: Merc1 [merc1]
Aug 12, 2005 (11:15 am)
What's not logical? I got stuck on the side of the road before with my MB. That's why I won't buy MB again. You mean it's not logical when someone doesn't buy MB again after he or she got burned? Then give me some logic that why I should buy MB again?
#10191 of 24723 Re: Lexux? [ctsang]
Aug 12, 2005 (11:19 am)
What is your point?
In area where I live, Lexus cars are used by driving schools for beginners and by taxicab companies.
Does it bother you?
#10192 of 24723 Re: Lexux? [michael_mattox]
Aug 12, 2005 (11:24 am)
Hmm interesting comparison considering the LS and the S are not in the same price range. Lets compare the LS with a Benz with a similar price the C55 AMG. At a cost of about $55K the C-55 will do 0-60 in 4.9 secs. The C55 is a little smaller but will smoke anything made by Toyota including your precious LS. And the C55 isn't Mercedes fastest car by a long shot.
It really is shocking, Toyota doesn't make anything that can compete with the C55 in performance at any size or price range in the U.S. (I don't know what they sell in Japan.)
Toyota does not seem to be positioning itself as a performance car maker, it rather seems to be aiming at making reliable, practical, people movers.
And if you want to compare the best large luxury sedans from the two lines Mercedes wins easily. Lexus has nothing that comes close to the V-12 twin turbo of the S-65.
Also the LS is a brand new model, the new S is coming out early next year and from what I hear it is going to be a technological marvel, so we will have to wait and see which new model is better.
And if you have forgotton or haven't read my earlier posts I am not a big fan of large cars, so I really have little interest in the S or the LS..
#10193 of 24723 Re: Merc1 [merc1]
Aug 12, 2005 (11:31 am)
You keep saying the average customer doesn't care about this or that when they buy a vehicle. I am an average customer, so are many who got burned like yourself. I am not willing to get burned again, why should you?
#10194 of 24723 Re: Merc1 [merc1]
Aug 12, 2005 (11:34 am)
Lets see... you ask for dots and I provide them and you moan again ?
So you have no issues with MB losing BILLIONS over a 3-year period. That is not an issue of market performance impacting buyers, eh ? With a money-losing venture would MB be able to afford some niceties for its high-end buyers ?
You state that poor reliability has no great effect on sales, yet MB is not growing as much as its competition, in a growing market. And you don't see the link ?
You say that resale value of CLK is high, right ? Well, how many CLKs do MB sell a year compared to how many C, E or S ? Get the point ???
MB's production issues... let's move on...
Unit sales... Lexus' have been buoyed by SUVs no doubt. But where was MB when the market was screaming for SUV ? Failed leadership, don't you think ? MB is in the business of making money, yet they failed to properly read the market pulse wrt SUVs. Their half-hearted attempt for the ML showed in poor reliability. Now that gas prices are through the roof, Lexus is moving to hybrid, correctly anticipating the market, once again. Try buying a Prius at your local dealership and see the waiting list.
And finally, on the sales gains by Lexus over MB over the past 6 years. You want me to provide the numbers again ? Did you not read the numbers provided by syswei already ? Or you no longer believe in numbers ????
I have no problem with MB. I wish them well... These long debate is about why MB is no longer the defacto *must have* brand. I say it once again: the market has spoken, and the trends are undeniable. I do not expect MB to go out of business, but if they continue this destructive path, then they would be in danger. Who knows, maybe Chrysler may end up owning MB in the near future !!! Stranger things have happened, you know....
#10195 of 24723 Re: Lexux? [kga]
Aug 12, 2005 (11:34 am)
Becasue those cars are reliable. Does it bother you they are more reliable?
#10196 of 24723 Re: Lexux? [kga]
Aug 12, 2005 (11:41 am)
I didn't get your point the first time. The point is the people in Hong Kong who ride in MBs is becasue of luxury, not because of sportiness. My folks ride in MBs, but I drive a BMW.
#10197 of 24723 Re: Lexux? [jtbenz]
Aug 12, 2005 (11:51 am)
jt: u compare a C55 to an LS430 because of price ? Would you compare a $55K E320 with a $55K Boxter S ? Are these comparable cars to you just bcos they are similarly priced ? BTW, how many of that precious C55 are produced ? How many S600 are produced ? These are limited production cars that u are using against mainstream high volume cars. The LS compares head-to-head with an S-class. That the former is cheaper has nothing to do with it being an inferior product; to the contrary, that the S- is more expensive has more to do with the inefficient cost structure of MB. So price has nothing to do with it....