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High End Luxury Cars

24723 messages,  Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum.

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan



Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Messages Page 1005 of 2473

#10039 of 24723 Re: merc1 [anthonyp] by merc1

Aug 07, 2005 (10:15 pm)

Replying to: anthonyp (Aug 07, 2005 2:46 pm)
Do you know just what mecedes and bmw reliability problems have been? After trading the Mercedes for a bmw stationwagon, and as I previously told you--the Mercedes clk was trouble free except for one window switch one time, --I sort of think the Mercedes problems are a little overblown....
 
Overall it has been electronics and the intergration of it. BMW and Mercedes both introduced a lot of things over the last 4-5 years and some of these features weren't up to snuff for joe customer to start using them. Comand for Mercedes and Idrive for BMW, both have been headaches. I'm not sure about BMW, but Mercedes changed suppliers back in 2003, from Bosch to Alpine, even though the head-unit looks the same. I haven't seen any more about Comand since they made that change. Mercedes' doing worse than BMW has to do with e-brakes on one of their biggest sellers, the E-Class. I think that on these surveys, the actual complaints about feel is what is doing so much damage, not just an actual malfunction. These brakes have been recalled several times for fixes and they don't seem to be a problem on the nearly identical underneath CLS. The SL is a small volume car so you won't hear to much about it, but the E is where the work needs to be done and has been for the most part. There was a volt-meter problem on certain MB models too, and MB recalled these before it because a widespread issue.
 
M

#10040 of 24723 Re: Unreliable Luxury cars [oac] by merc1

Aug 07, 2005 (10:24 pm)

Replying to: oac (Aug 07, 2005 10:10 pm)
Talking about MB, it is a highly prestigious brand, no doubt, but what I was saying is that buyers today have more choices when buying high end lux cars than in the past, say decades ago. And the increased wealth in the US certainly provides the fodder for many to afford all sorts of luxury cars. WIth Audi, BMW, Lexus, Infiniti, VW, etc... MB can no longer dominate the lux space as int he past.
 
Decades ago? Whats the point? This is common knowledge that from decades ago that MB isn't the only choice in town, they never were, only the most popular one for the high end buyer, which was the point of your original post. Lexus wasn't even around "decades ago"? MB is still the most prestigious out of the mainstream luxury brands either way you want to word it. BMW and Audi have always been around so I really don't get what you're trying to say here, and Mercedes has held prestige over them every since. BMW can't sell anything past the 7-Series in price and they've tried twice in the last 15 years with the Z8 and 850i, both came up short. You say that Mercedes can no longer dominate the luxury space? Then who does? Or we need to determine what is the luxury space? Is it 30K on up or it where the real luxury cars are, imo somewhere around 60K and up. Between that point of where the mid-size luxury cars taper off, around 60K or so to somewhere over 100K Mercedes is dominant. Audi and Infiniti have big time trouble selling anything over 60K, especially Infiniti. Lexus has but one sedan and a coupe that sell for over 60K, and the SC430 doesn't break 70K like the LS430 does. BMW does a lot better above that point and Mercedes is the clear leader there so I don't see any basis for your point, it seems like reaching for something that simply isn't there, at least right now.
 
For the high-end buyer some type of Mercedes is still "the car" whether that ranking is deserved or not. Between the CLS, SL, CL, S, and other various AMG models Mercedes moves more high-dollar hardware both here and around the world than anyone else in the mainstream luxury sector. Sure when you talk about Aston-Martin, Bentley, Ferrari and others Mercedes is not as prestigious and can't command the same prices. The 450K SLR is a rare thing.
 
Even I, as much as I like the Mercedes CL or SL, would take an Aston-Martin DB9 over either one of them.
 
No one here has seen the new S in person or the LS at all so there is no way for anyone to know how the cars will match up in person. The S-Class sales of the last few years are supposed to drop, its a 7 year old car. Even still it outsells all the Euro competition in the U.S. and around the world, only the much cheaper LS outsells it, and in this country only. That to me says Mercedes' prestige or dominance isn't even in question. When the S-Class or the E-Class for that matter lose their positions both here and around the world then you may have a point.
 
In the lower ranks its BMW who is red-hot obviously with everyone chasing the 3-Series, been that way for years. Mercedes was never the dominant choice when it came to their smaller cars.
 
M

#10041 of 24723 Merc1 by oac

Aug 07, 2005 (10:41 pm)

You say that Mercedes can no longer dominate the luxury space? Then who does if they don't is all I'm asking. Between that point of where the mid-size luxury cars taper off, around 60K or so to somewhere over 100K Mercedes is dominant...
 
The argument of price you continue to throw around is old and worn. The high prices of MBs have been shown not to be solely about prestige, but more to do with their antiquated production system which is too costly. Thanks to Chrysler, MB can remain afloat for sometime....
 
In the >90K price range, the number of MB car sales are so small as to be insignificant. The price range that counts is the $50 - $80K. That is the sweet spot in the market we are talking about here, and that is where Lexus outshines the others, as the market has spoken. If MB can produce their cars at Lexus expense would they be priced as a Lexus ? Nope....
 
And Lexus will start to play in that stratosphere soon enough, but these will mostly be niche cars, just like the CL, SL, SLR cars from MB, or the 760iL from BMW.
 
And BMW sales are boosted by incentives even on the brand spanking new e90, their bread-and-butter... The 5- and 7-series are not setting any sales records, though the 5- continue to sell well, but not kicking its competition to the curb (yet).

#10042 of 24723 Re: Merc1 [oac] by merc1

Aug 07, 2005 (11:35 pm)

Replying to: oac (Aug 07, 2005 10:41 pm)
The argument of price you continue to throw around is old and worn. The high prices of MBs have been shown not to be solely about prestige, but more to do with their antiquated production system which is too costly. Thanks to Chrysler, MB can remain afloat for sometime....
 
Whats old and worn is the diversion into irrelevant issues. You're bringing up why MB's prices are where they are instead of supporting your original point about MB not being the choice for the high-end buyer. No one said anything about why they're prices are what they are. You said that MB is no longer the choice for the high-end buyer and I see nothing to support that theory. Jumping around to what Lexus will do in the future or why Mercedes' prices are where they are has nothing to do with the fact that Mercedes remains the most popular choice for the high-end buyer. The day Lexus can sell a 450K car like the SLR I'll be too old to participate here.
 
When Lexus is able to command SL, CL, SLR, and high end AMG like prices you won't think this point is "old and worn" I'm sure.
 
The data says otherwise about the 7-Series. The current car has been the best selling 7-Series ever so it has set a "record" for BMW. It has beaten the best ever total for the previous car, and has done so for more than just one year. The 5-Series continues to be either first or second in its class, which is more than anyone can say for the GS. You always say I don't look at the total picture, but here you aren't either. You're judging the success of the 7-Series based on a month to month basis and/or relative to the much cheaper LS in sales, instead of the worldwide sales and overall sales of the car since 2002, which makes it a success for BMW, you know the people who actually get the money from it. The car has been panned in the press and the market did just the opposite.
 
Please give evidence of incentives on the brand new 3-Series, I didn't know there were any.
 
M

#10043 of 24723 Re: Merc1 [merc1] by oac

Aug 08, 2005 (12:35 am)

Replying to: merc1 (Aug 07, 2005 11:35 pm)
Whats old and worn is the diversion into irrelevant issues. You're bringing up why MB's prices are where they are instead of supporting your original point about MB not being the choice for the high-end buyer. No one said anything about why they're prices are what they are. You said that MB is no longer the choice for the high-end buyer and I see nothing to support that theory.
 
Sometimes it is a pain discussing with you Merc1... What about the fact that buyers TODAY have more choices of high-end lux cars than in the past, say a decade ago, that you don't understand ? Lexus and Infiniti are new entrants within the past 15 years, right ? Prior to 1990, its either MB or BMW... Now Lexus via its LS, and Infiniti via its G cars have provided much better competition to the dominance of the traditional leaders (MB and BMW).
 
Yes, 7-series may be selling well for a 7-series, but it remains a distant third to the LS. So I am looking at the bigger picture of the entire class, not the narrow picture of solely the 7-series sales record.... Do you stop to ask why the lux car market has expanded with new entrants like Lexus and Infiniti (and even VW) ? That's what I mean by choice. Going forward, there will be even more choices, and the battle will only get hotter, and better for buyers. Are you a buyer of these cars ? If you are, then you'd care about the choices; but if you are not, then all you can do is pontificate....

#10045 of 24723 Re: Merc1 [oac] by merc1

Aug 08, 2005 (1:46 am)

Replying to: oac (Aug 08, 2005 12:35 am)
What about the fact that buyers TODAY have more choices of high-end lux cars than in the past, say a decade ago, that you don't understand ? Lexus and Infiniti are new entrants within the past 15 years, right ? Prior to 1990, its either MB or BMW... Now Lexus via its LS, and Infiniti via its G cars have provided much better competition to the dominance of the traditional leaders (MB and BMW).
 
I got that part long ago, its the relevence I'm trying to figure out. First it was MB isn't the choice for the high-end buyer, now it has shifted to there are more choices. We all know that. Anyone can see this. Sure the market has expanded and MB and BMW have expanded their sales with it. Back before Lexus and all the newcomers MB/BMW never broke 100K sales a year, now they're both over 200K a year.
 
Prior to 1990, there was Jaguar, Audi, and Cadillac also, not just BMW and Mercedes. Were those others good choices? Thats open for debate for sure, but they were there sure enough.
 
I never argued that buyers don't have more choices today, only that MB is still the main choice for the high-end buyer, which is what you started out with a few posts back. Infiniti's G35 has nothing to do with your original point about MB and the high-end buyer or the high-end luxury buyer period. The Q45 does however and its a dud of the highest order. Infiniti isn't even a player at the high-end of the market. Audi sells more A8s than Infiniti does Q45s.
 
Of course there is more competition all around, I didn't debate that. I couldn't debate that with a 1/2 dozen newer and/or revised cars in the E's segment alone this year, for example.
 
Yes, 7-series may be selling well for a 7-series, but it remains a distant third to the LS. So I am looking at the bigger picture of the entire class, not the narrow picture of solely the 7-series sales record...
 
So what, the 7-Series costs more than the LS430 to begin with. Secondly how are you looking at the whole picture when the gist of your post is again about sales compared to the LS and not BMW's bottom line? You're only looking at sales relative to a much cheaper car and ignoring the fact that the current 7-Series has surpassed the record for any 7-Series before it.
 
Why is it that the 7-Series has to outsell the LS for it to be a success in your eyes, but the GS doesn't have to outsell the 5-Series to be a hit? Major contradiction there. Sales, again aren't the sole indicator of whether or not a car is a success or not.
 
I see you withdrew your post with that claim about who sells more cars between 50-80K so I'll delete mine that disproved it.
 
M

#10046 of 24723 Re: Merc1 [oac] by merc1

Aug 08, 2005 (2:19 am)

Replying to: oac (Aug 07, 2005 10:41 pm)
In the >90K price range, the number of MB car sales are so small as to be insignificant. The price range that counts is the $50 - $80K. That is the sweet spot in the market we are talking about here, and that is where Lexus outshines the others, as the market has spoken.
  
That maybe the case with the "others" but it certainly isn't the case when it comes to Mercedes-Benz. At the 50-80K "sweet spot" price point, that statement is incorrect if you're referring to Mercedes.
  
Since 2005 isn't over yet, let’s look at 2004. Mercedes has roughly 4 models that sell in your noted price range of 50-80K, the G, E, CLK and most of the S-Class. Now between the E, S, CLK, and G-Class Mercedes sold 103,461 cars that cost roughly between 50-80K in 2004.
  
Those numbers don't even reflect the CL, SL and SLR at 2683, 12,885 and 45 units respectively, all of which sell at prices way above any Lexus.
  
In the >90K price range, the number of MB car sales are so small as to be insignificant.
  
Sorry, but just because Lexus doesn't sell anything past 70K doesn't mean the 12K+ SL's Mercedes sold last year at 90K+ are "insignificant". Such a statement can't be taken seriously as no one else even comes close to such volume at that price point. Why is it that if Lexus doesn't do it, it is deemed insignificant?
  
Anyway, back to your original statement about the 50-80K price bracket.
  
Lexus has the LS430, GS430, LX470 and SC430 that sell between the 50-80K price points you mentioned. I couldn't find the total number for 2004 for the SC430, but the GS, LS, and LX sold 50,380 units. This is counting the GS as a whole because if you look at the just the GS430, which is the only 50K GS model the 8,262 units the "GS" sold last year would be a whole lot less. A whole lot less considering hardly nobody bought a GS430 last year. (Even with the new car the GS300 is by far the majority of GS sales, but thats another story.) Even if you add the 35,420 units the GX470 sold last year and add say 12K SC430 sales last year (which I don't think it sold that many), you still get 97,880 units which is still below the Mercedes total. The SC430 number is very generous imo as I seriously doubt it sold that many in 2004. If you take away the GS300, you'd most likely wind up with about 90K units for Lexus sold in that 50-80K price (which is very impressive I'll admit) range compared to roughly over 100K units for Mercedes.
 
Now if you have differing numbers I'd like to be corrected here, especially about the SC430 which I admit I'm guessing since I couldn't find a grand total for 2004 anywhere.
 
Except for a huge number of SC430 sales way over what I gave, switching the price bracket doesn't change anything. Plus you're ignoring the extra 15,613 units Mercedes sold over your 80K price bracket. Either way you want to chop it, Mercedes is still the #1 choice for the mainstream, high-end luxury car buyer.
  
The world of Bentley, Aston-Martin, Rolls-Royce and Maybach is quite different.
 
M

#10047 of 24723 The right way to look at lux sales by ljflx

Aug 08, 2005 (5:50 am)

Let me just interject that you don't look at lux sales on pure absolute volume. I don't know the numbers and I'm not going to waste my time looking them up. But my guess is that the new 7 isn't anymore successful than the old 7 and may be worse off. Sure it's volume is up but the market has expanded. As I said - I don't know the numbers so this is only an example but if BMW was selling 16K cars in a 60K market that's a 27% share. If they are now selling 20K cars in an 85K market that's a 24% share. In that example you would measure the new car as less successful. My gut tells me the latter is the case.

#10048 of 24723 Re: The right way to look at lux sales [ljflx] by designman

Aug 08, 2005 (10:29 am)

Replying to: ljflx (Aug 08, 2005 5:50 am)
Ljflx, your gut is right in the case of the 5-series. Someone in the Luxury Performance Sedans thread pointed out that the segment DOUBLED sales in one year from July 04 to July 05 but that the 5’s market share went from 23.7% to 18.8%. Don’t know how true it is but if so, no marketer can be happy about this. It’s kind of like an employee getting a $10K raise when everyone else in the company is getting $20K. Slap in the face. The boom in that segment was incredible (actually, sounds too incredible to believe) and there’s no way BMW should not have at least maintained market share.
 
But every company in that position will take the figures and spin it to the public. “Record sales” in the case of the 7. Yeah, it sounds good on the surface, and it is in context of the company itself, but it’s specious in other regards as Ljflx mentioned. Also, around here the BMW campers play it like a cheap fiddle, when in fact BMW should be doing better and has to watch its step even though it is prospering.
 
BMW Auto and Brand Sales are down. Kdshapiro, it’s not a blip. I can’t see how BMW auto sales are trending in the right direction.
 
BMW Group USA July 2005 Sales:
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/08/02/139184.html
 
BMW Group First-Half Sales For 2005:
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/07/01/136391.html

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