Last post on Apr 29, 2013 at 4:47 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Jaguar XJR, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, BMW M5, Mercedes-Benz E55 AMG, Audi S6, Maserati Quattroporte, Audi S8, Sedan
#531 of 1045 wishnhigh1
Jun 26, 2002 (9:03 pm)
Oh no...that may have been initially. Mercedes is hard at work on the improving quality all the way around.
Yes Mercedes did switch their engineering philosphy in the mid-nineties. It started with the 1994 C-Class and came full circle with the current E-Class. The part that gets me about this whole Mercedes thing is that some say they want Mercedes to go back to doing cars like the 1992-1999 S-Class. Yet the same people that would have never bought those cars wouldn't buy one of these new fangle Mercedes' either. Now that Mercedes has tasted best-seller status I doubt they'll ever go back to being a "botique" shop as some call it.
The problem with Mercedes is not engines, transmissions and major components. It's paint, electronics and new technology. Either the suppliers or the engineers themselves are under too much pressure to produce these things without the reliability standards MB used to employ. If Mercedes' were truly "breaking down" their sales would reflect that. But those igging little problems, some people put up with them some won't. Those problems though don't a repeat buyer make. So Mercedes' health 5-10 years from now is at stake, not 2003.
Mercedes also needs to forget about trying to out-handle and out-sport BMW. BMW still doesn't make a better car than Mercedes. Mercedes is still ranked as the top German car overall in just about any survey you want to name, at least in this country where it matters to me. Mercedes needs to concentrate on quality, safety, comfort, durablity, and then performance. Those are the things that made them a household name, not slalom times.
I could turn the company around myself in 2-5 years.
#532 of 1045 great point merc1, MB lost its identity
Jun 27, 2002 (9:00 pm)
"quality, safety, comfort, durablity", that's EXACTLY what I think of as far as MB tradition. One buys a Mercedes because you're buying a "quality" car that you want to drive in comfort, that will last "forever". You pay once, you pay alot, but this baby you take to your grave and your grandkids will still be driving it. BMW's calling card is the here and now; you buy this car to ride fast and hard in the turns and breaks, but it isnt a classic 20 years from now the way a 1982-S series is still a classic. Honestly, the electronic gremlins that's plaguing MB is the number one reason I've decided to wait a few more years before pulling the trigger on a MB. If the Lexus RX300 can be built in the U.S.A., and yet still be well made, there is no reason MB cant outsource it's components from the same suppliers.
As long as MB limits its performance concerns to the AMG division, and solely concentrate its efforts on quality, comfort and durability, (the exact same traits Lexus wants to be known for) it will keep its core fans and win over new ones. I guess it's lost its identity in its desire to compete with BMW as a performance car.
Jun 28, 2002 (1:40 am)
Yep, Yep, Yep I agree. Years ago and older guy told me that "everything you need to run with a BMW is there, if needed". He was referring to the 500E at the time. Nothing wrong with Mercedes being sportier with each generation, but that "last forever" part is much, much more important.
#534 of 1045 comparing the E55 and the M5
Jun 29, 2002 (12:49 am)
I think there's no question that the E55 is far more reliable, I have read too many reports about the M5 with pre-mature clutch problems and electronic issues.
AMG cars generally seem far more reliable than M series, another example is the current blown engines affecting the current M3s?
The Lexus is not even in the same league, they do not offer a product that can compare in performance.
#535 of 1045 The power and quality race...
Jun 29, 2002 (10:34 am)
...is more abot different strokes for different folks than anything else. BMW-M, Merc AMG and Jag R offer different philosophies that attempt to address their particular performance tradition.
The BMW M cars are awesomeo cars, but definitely on the boy-racer side, with predictable bodywork. And the suspension settings, while superb for track work, are not what I'd personally live with day to day in California roads day to day for a $50k+ car. Jaguar R goes for the ultimate stealth power, shying away from anything dramatic, and without compromising the elegnce of the design. Mercedes AMG is somewhere inbetween the two, and sometimes over-shoots to either side. Personally, I prefer the Jaguar performance interpretation for the street, but fully admit it will not be able to follow an M car around a track. I does not rank high on my priority list, anyway.
As to who is winning the performance race, I thin it's silly to do that based on the wild speculation the car mags put out there. In the current climate, car companies are cancelling projects left and right, thus it's best to talk about the performance race with *available* cars. And when it comes to highest hp in current offerings, Merc has the others beat right now with the new SL in AMG style.
After owning an XJR for 2 years now, it's nice, but my next car will not have the performance treatment. It's utter overkill here in the US, and misses the point of California road conditions. Besides, no car can ever hold a candle to my motorcycle...
Jun 29, 2002 (4:56 pm)
I'll go for that..........
Jul 03, 2002 (7:01 am)
What about the new RS6, any thoughts? If they put a manual in it can it take sales from M5's.
#538 of 1045 RS6 extra weight will prove its undoing
Jul 04, 2002 (7:20 pm)
the engine is great, and suspension should be fine, but the Quattro comes at a price in weight, and unless the comparo (M5, E55, SType-R, RS6) includes performance on the wet, the RS6 will not be pushed to its potential on the dry
I think its appeal will be limited to Audi enthusiasts, but for a person open to the "best" performing sports sedan, it should still come down to the M5 or E55. Of course this is all speculation based on extrapolation of the M3, C32, S4 comparisons
Jul 05, 2002 (9:39 am)
I think the RS6 will be just fine. I just think the A6 in general is the finest midsize sedan going right now. I've seen the RS6 on Auto, Motor und Sport TV and it's impressive to say the least. But Audi does have a weight problem with most of their hi-po cars, except the S8. The only reason the M5 will continue to grab the writers, is a manual trans. Audi, Jaguar and MB simply aren't going install one.
Jul 05, 2002 (11:37 am)
I have heard that they already have a Manual transmission in the S6 in Germany, and are planning on getting it in the RS6 and S8. I dont know if this will eventually make its way to the US, but I hope it will by the time I can afford these cars:)