Last post on Apr 29, 2013 at 4:47 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Jaguar XJR, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, BMW M5, Mercedes-Benz E55 AMG, Audi S6, Maserati Quattroporte, Audi S8, Sedan
Jun 24, 2002 (11:39 am)
Why don't you wait until 2005 (when the BMW V10 actually appears) to declare that AMG
has lost the anything. Right now i.e. 2002 they are killing BMW in power with one engine the 5.5L Kompressor V8. A staggering 493hp. And AMG has had a V10 on the shelf for years, as is a new V12 a comin'. You think Mercedes is going to just sit and watch BMW and Audi reach for the sky?
#524 of 1045 BMW won the power race?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Jun 25, 2002 (12:29 pm)
...to whoever said this, hasn't it crossed your mind that they may want to utilize the 550hp V12 from the Maybach. It is official that a detuned version will power the top models such as S, CL, and SL.
BMW should be scared about what MB has up its sleeve these days. The 493hp SL55 is just the warm-up. Next it will be a 500hp S600, a 580hp SLR, a 550hp Maybach and so on, before the power gets ridiculously excessive
Jun 25, 2002 (12:53 pm)
Benz should stop with the bragging rights and start concentrating on beating Lexus on quality and reliability.
#526 of 1045 Real World Numbers: M Series vs AMG
Jun 25, 2002 (3:52 pm)
Which car magazine was it that within the past 6 months or so tested most every BMW M Series against its MB AMG counterpart? Didn't they top rate every BMW over each respective MB? Thinking most of the performance numbers favored the BMWs, even in cases where MB supposedly had more powerful motors (due to use of automatic transmissions in the AMGs).
Unless and until AMG does what M Series does, and only uses manual transmissions, not sure I care what any automatic-transmission-equipped car can do performance wise. Wouldn't be something I'm interested in or would consider buying.
#527 of 1045 wishnhigh1
Jun 25, 2002 (10:41 pm)
Thats also part of the brief.
Jun 25, 2002 (11:05 pm)
MB is addressing quality concerns? Thats great news. The last I heard, MB was scoffing and calling the quality and reliability gap a psychological thing. They absolutely refused to believe anything was wrong with their cars.
Actually, I think a lot of MBs current quality and reliability issues have to do more with the mass assembly than the engineering. Where are the problem-child benzs being built these days?
#529 of 1045 quality concerns in general
Jun 26, 2002 (7:43 am)
As for Benzes, i know this topic has been beaten to death on the MB boards, but i was under the impression that the quality problems included the "bigger" benzes too? anecdotal evidence from my friends who drive the S series tells me that the problems are not limited to the smaller MBs (although the problems may be more numerous in the lesser benzes). I have 3 friends who each drive an S; 2 of them have been in the shop 5-8 times already over the last half year for little things, mostly eletronic and cosmetic, annoying stuff, but nevertheless unacceptable if you're competing with the likes of Lexus in the $50,000+ market (the 3rd one only twice). And didnt MB switch their engineering philosophy in the early 90s? Going from building the ultimate benz regardless of price to building a benz to meet a certain price/profit criteria?
BMW however, appears to be improving in quality and reliability (basing this on consumer reports trends). Basically, the BMW of today is more troublefree than a similar model 10 years ago, whereas the same can not be said of MB (JD Powers initial quality survey ranked them just above Hyundai, ouch).
Back to the M series/AMG specifically: are these power versions any more/less reliable than their more pedestrian siblings? I'm considering an M5 (due to the 6spd), but dont know if it's going to be as troublefree as a 540i. Can anyone with experience with either AMG or M comment on their long term durability?
#530 of 1045 MB proponents are right
Jun 26, 2002 (7:46 am)
i kind of jumped the gun with the V10 in 2005; MB will no doubt maintain a competitive model to compete with the M series. I think MB's biggest disadvantage is not offering a 6spd manual option; most likely the difference in performance that gives BMW the edge in all the auto-magazine comparisons
personally, i would choose a SLK AMG with 6spd over either a boxter or Z3-M
#531 of 1045 wishnhigh1
Jun 26, 2002 (9:03 pm)
Oh no...that may have been initially. Mercedes is hard at work on the improving quality all the way around.
Yes Mercedes did switch their engineering philosphy in the mid-nineties. It started with the 1994 C-Class and came full circle with the current E-Class. The part that gets me about this whole Mercedes thing is that some say they want Mercedes to go back to doing cars like the 1992-1999 S-Class. Yet the same people that would have never bought those cars wouldn't buy one of these new fangle Mercedes' either. Now that Mercedes has tasted best-seller status I doubt they'll ever go back to being a "botique" shop as some call it.
The problem with Mercedes is not engines, transmissions and major components. It's paint, electronics and new technology. Either the suppliers or the engineers themselves are under too much pressure to produce these things without the reliability standards MB used to employ. If Mercedes' were truly "breaking down" their sales would reflect that. But those igging little problems, some people put up with them some won't. Those problems though don't a repeat buyer make. So Mercedes' health 5-10 years from now is at stake, not 2003.
Mercedes also needs to forget about trying to out-handle and out-sport BMW. BMW still doesn't make a better car than Mercedes. Mercedes is still ranked as the top German car overall in just about any survey you want to name, at least in this country where it matters to me. Mercedes needs to concentrate on quality, safety, comfort, durablity, and then performance. Those are the things that made them a household name, not slalom times.
I could turn the company around myself in 2-5 years.
#532 of 1045 great point merc1, MB lost its identity
Jun 27, 2002 (9:00 pm)
"quality, safety, comfort, durablity", that's EXACTLY what I think of as far as MB tradition. One buys a Mercedes because you're buying a "quality" car that you want to drive in comfort, that will last "forever". You pay once, you pay alot, but this baby you take to your grave and your grandkids will still be driving it. BMW's calling card is the here and now; you buy this car to ride fast and hard in the turns and breaks, but it isnt a classic 20 years from now the way a 1982-S series is still a classic. Honestly, the electronic gremlins that's plaguing MB is the number one reason I've decided to wait a few more years before pulling the trigger on a MB. If the Lexus RX300 can be built in the U.S.A., and yet still be well made, there is no reason MB cant outsource it's components from the same suppliers.
As long as MB limits its performance concerns to the AMG division, and solely concentrate its efforts on quality, comfort and durability, (the exact same traits Lexus wants to be known for) it will keep its core fans and win over new ones. I guess it's lost its identity in its desire to compete with BMW as a performance car.