Last post on Sep 16, 2012 at 10:07 AM
You are in the BMW 7-Series
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BMW 7 Series
#933 of 1317 snow tires
Nov 12, 2003 (2:18 pm)
Although I no longer have a 7 series BMW I noticed the discussion about snow tires and I just thought I would try and help out. I had a 1997 and an 2000 740iL that I bought Bridgestone Blizzaks that cost me about $600 with the steel wheels and they were shipped already mounted and balanced. And I absolutly loved them. I live in Massachusetts on a long and rather steep hill and I never once got stuck or had to park it at the bottom. They are excellent tires and I would recommend them to anyone.
And incase you are wondering why I no longer have a BMW, the reasons are because of the new design which I could get used to, but the main reason is the iDrive and the steering wheel mounted shifter. I absolutly love how it rides and handles, but it seemed to me that they took the fun out of driving it when they moved the shifter.
#934 of 1317 USA Today and the New 7
Nov 13, 2003 (9:42 am)
Anybody see the article in yesterday's (11/12/03) USA Today money section on the complexity of new cars and the trouble fixing them? It cited a specific owner of a new BMW 7 series and a new E class and the fact that the factory was willingly buying back cars from owners due to multiple technology related problems that could not be fixed. These issues are well documented amongst enthusiast forums like this. However when these problems receive "mainstream" media attention like USA Today, many more potential buyers see it. As the second owner will not be eligible for a "buy back" resale value suffers. Year old 7's and E classes should be more affordable than ever!
Interestingly, the article focused on German cars, brief mention was made of Cadillac and no mention of Japanese brands. Furthering the notion that the Germans are great engineers but lousy electricians! It will be interesting to watch the values of these cars over the next few years to see how they fare resale wise compared to their previous generation.
#935 of 1317 Betting Pool for estimating TMV of used 7's?
Nov 13, 2003 (6:55 pm)
Tasillo, I think that readers of your (and my) persuasion could set up a pool. The winner makes the best guess when the Emunds TMV of a 2002 745 hits 40K. The entries would be based on julian date. My money would be that on or about day 270 in 2004 you could pick up a 2002 7 Series for 30K under what it originally sold for.
This day will be marked by two things: an unparalled buying opportunity for 7 fans and the gnashing of teeth and other facial grimmaces on the part of people who just lost a good chunk of equity. More money than they probably made their first year out of law school or medical school. (You know, like many things, a "good price" is all about whether you are buying or selling.)
Just to keep this pool on the up and up, we'll ask Bmwseller to hold the money.
#936 of 1317 7 series values
Nov 14, 2003 (7:34 am)
As I'm already seeing very low mileage (7-12k) '02 7's on BMW lots in the high 50's, I'm betting these cars are going through the auctions at transaction prices in the high 40's already. My experience has been there is a huge gap between wholesale value and the retail (asking) price on the high-end cars. If that's the case, the owner trading an '02 7 with 20k miles is probably getting 45-47k Actual Cash Value for his/her $75-80k car. Boy, I'd be pissed! Also, the Atlanta dealers still have several '03 7's on the lots that I'll bet are being heavily discounted, further reducing the retail value of an '02. As attractive as this is to me, I'm steering way clear of the '02 7's as it's very evident many of these cars have electrical gremlins that are not only aggrivating, but in some cases render the car undriveable or inoperative.
The interesting thing is, lot's of these issues seem directly related to the complexity of the electronics which are controlled by the universally hated i-Drive. Rather than invest in the restyle or "freshening" as BMW puts it, why not rework the electronics, perhaps deleting the offending i-Drive, put the shifter back on the console and restore the driver oriented controls and cockpit that this great driving car deserve?
Here's hoping the Germans get it back on track soon before this great marque suffers the same fate as Audi in the early '80's!
#937 of 1317 Car & Driver
Nov 14, 2003 (11:04 am)
Just ran a comparo in which the i-drive, pretty much on its own, bumped the 7 from its traditional 1st place spot to 3rd behind the lexus and new Jag XJ.
C&D also predicted that the new 7 would take a real beating on resale value. I intend to own my old 1993 750 for at least another 6 years. The new 7 is NOT on my list of potential replacements. A good part of the reason for this is that not only is the vehicle extremely complicated, but BMW will not release repair info to third-parties such as Alldate or Chiltons. Suppose that's okay if all work is being done under warranty, but once that is over BMW's policy means you will be faced with a virtual dealer monopoly when the car needs fixing. Not a situation anyone wants to be in. It also poses a serious impediment to someone (like me) who likes to look over the mechanics shoulder and make sure the process is moving properly. Pretty hard to do if there is no access to info about the car.
For a used 7, all of this eventually this will translate into a reputation for being as expensive to maintain as a Rolls Royce, and you won't be able to give one away.
Nov 14, 2003 (3:21 pm)
The large spread between wholesale and retail "asking" prices on luxury cars must be because a) the reseller is taking a large risk in just putting one of these 50K used cars in his inventory, more risk than say on a quick turning, 15k Honda, and needs more reward for the risk and b) the reseller needs some room to negotiate the price down upon the potential buyer's request.
Tasillo AND F1Buick:
Would you feel the same way about a CPO 2002 7 Series? What if Munich shouldered the burden out to 100K? At what price would a non-CPO 2002 become attractive?
#939 of 1317 depreciation
Nov 14, 2003 (4:17 pm)
my comments principally were directed at whoever winds up holding the car when the warranties go away. In the meantime, howver, there would be the usual issue of owning a car that probably is depreciating faster than the loan is being paid off. If the car is destroyed or stolen, basic insurance coverage only pays market value, not the amount on the loan. One of the big money makers for dealers nowadays is "difference in value insurance," where they sell you a policy which guarentees paying off the loan balance, rather than just the market value.
ALL of this, in my mind, just points to the idiocy of placing huge amounts of money in an asset which you fully expect to suffer exteme depreciation at some point. Even if you are not the person who ends up holding the bag at the end, the fact is that the known future for this vehicle is that someone will end up holding that bag. This creates a risk spreading/avoidance situation that WILL effect value at all stages, though work arounds like extended warrenties and special insurance will distort the economics/mathematics a bit.
Ain't no free lunches. The question is who pays. And if you think it through, you'll probably find out that even if it looks like someone else is footing the bill for you, that probably is not entirely the case. If might be risk rather than money, but the cost will be there.
If you want a used 7-series look for an E38 750. It's to die for.
#940 of 1317 7 problems
Nov 14, 2003 (5:41 pm)
My brother mentioned that the WSJ had an article
on the new 7 and its problems.(maybe he meant USA
TODAY)He said BMW was buying back some of these
cars on condition they sign an agreement not to
disclose the buy back. The experience I've had with my 1998 740i is less than steller. It has
65000 miles. I thought all the bugs were being worked at when It was going in for repairs on an
average of every four months. Under warranty this
was fine except for the inconvenience. Catalytic
converter(both),replace LCD instrument panel,
rear suspension, center tie rod, thrust rod
bushings,induction cleaning kit, a/c compressor
($1376 for the A/C alone) My mistake may have been
not buying the extended warranty.Love the ride
but my next car will be a Lexus, boring drive and
#941 of 1317 Yes, the WSJ also had an article
Nov 14, 2003 (8:10 pm)
Terry79, yes, the Journal also had an article on the not-selling-well 7 series. (Its main points were that sales are down in the US and non existant in Europe.)
F1Buick, extremely well put point. Its a bit like musical chairs. Someone is going to get caught out when the music (read: warranty) stops and until then the organizers of the game have to have artificial incentives to get people to take a chance and play it.
Maybe thats one reason why if you "don't have to" be seen in a 7 Series/E Series/etc. you just say screw it and buy a Tahoe/Expedition with a roof and leather. That (and a primary and secondary housing market on speed) is IMHO why a lot of high income people are happy enough with a loaded up SUV.
#942 of 1317 musical chairs
Nov 16, 2003 (12:37 pm)
great analogy! Moreover, my point is that if everyone KNOWS it is a game of musical chairs, then the market is going to reflect that knowledge. Those wanting to sell will have to pay buyers to play the game, and if I were a buyer I would wonder where that cost is being passed onto me. It can be hidden in not-so-obvious areas, e.g., risk of holding the bag if the car is totaled and the insurance won't pay off the loan balance.
I doubt there is much cross-shopping between luxo SUV's and german autobahn blasters. The SUV's are for people who view driving as chore, the effort of which is to be minimized. They are buying SUV's now instead of the Cadillacs they would have bought 40 years ago, partially because of the perceived utility of the SUV body style and partially because of a highly misguided belief about the "safety" of AWD.
Regarding Terry79's problems, that certainly is an unusual and troublesome list. Perhaps now that the warranty is gone he might shop for another repair option beside the local dealer's service department. The list is unusual enough to suggest a bit of "overdiagnosis" by the shop, e.g., how did BOTH cat converters happen to go bad, when they are independent of each other? One would be unusual at that mileage. Two seems almost impossible.