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#205 of 613 Carguy by jimjps Apr 11, 2004 (7:58 pm)
Looks like we are thinking the same cars. I tested the Mazda3 hatch. It is a really good car and it shows that it is made in Japan. The interior is nicer than the Focus (if you like black) and it feels rock solid and the suspension is great. The electric power steering is super quick. Note that it is geared a little high - engine is spinning pretty fast at 70mph, but the engine is smooth. Maybe a consideration if you drive long highway runs at significant high speeds. What killed it for me is that I want a wagon with some cargo space for camping, etc and the Mazda3 is only 41" between the wheel wells whereas the Focus is 45" and the Focus wagon has an exceptional amount of useable space for a smallish vehicle. However, the Mazda3 is up to date, no doubt stiffer chasis and latest safety, so I'd have to say it is the superior vehicle in this category, bar none, but more $$ of course. If you are looking for Outback note the all-new outback is just months away with significant improvements. Well, happy car-shopping - Seems like I am making a hobby of it and may never buy anything because it will spoil the fun!
#206 of 613 Jimjps/Carguy04 by cjsb Apr 12, 2004 (2:17 pm)
Make that three of us. I'm up here near Toronto looking at the same cars (as listed by carguy), drawing many of the same conclusions and raising the same questions. I've been on my search for a vehicle for nearly 6 months and am close to pulling the trigger on an '04 ZTW. Why haven't I yet? First, because I was hoping to get a look at the '05 before making my decision - though I agree with Jimjps that it looks like it may be "uglified" (only seen photos). The added variable for me is that the '04's here still use the 2.0 130hp engine...I believe the two of you may already have the 2.3 145hp (#'s correct?). I also have heard the concerns about the seating/lumbar support (as per carguy). Lastly, I want to see where the Mazda 6 wagon will fit in all on this. Ultimately however, this car seems a very good deal and offers a unique value equation (moderate cost, substantial cargo room, above average fuel economy, not a mini-van) not commonly seen in the current market. At least by my estimation. Other equally outfitted "competitors" are either pricier, smaller or both. My negotiations have resulted in a cash purchase of around $23 500 or a 60 month finance of about $445/mo with zero down. Figures are in Canadian dollars and include all tax/license. And like carguy, I'm not sure I want to give-up what has become a genuine hobby...maybe I'll also end up not buying anything just to keep the search alive.
#207 of 613 cjsb by jimjps Apr 12, 2004 (4:25 pm)
IN Canada you may actually get a better engine by waiting, because the 05 2.0 will be a "Duratec" and get just a few extra hp over the 130hp 2.0 Zetec. I think this is from improvement in head design. The 2.3 PZEV is a Duratec and already has the improved head design. Here in the states we will loose hp going from the 2.3 to 2.0. Here's my opinion on those other cars and they are just that, opinions: MAtrix - the 1.8 just doesn't cut it, the Ford/Mazda 2.3 is in another class. Matrix reviews are not great. PT cruiser - kind of a styling statement. The bulging fenders are just dumb - extra turbulence and less interior volume for the car exterior size - but it makes up some with the height. Jetta - quality of the NA car is not too good. Get it with a German engine like a TDI and now you've got something worthwhile. It has already been replaced by the next generation in Germany. Wait a year and get the next generation. Forrester - mechanically good. I really wish they styled it differently. Mazda6 wagon is now on dealer lots. For cargo volume it is not much bigger then ZTW. The 3.0 will be a lot lower on mpg and not a lot faster then a 2.3 ZTW. Oh, and the 4 cylinder version - well that's the same engine as the Focus and Mazda3 2.3! Good looking vehicle though and latest safety. It's made in US (as is the ZTW) and the MAzda3 will probably have the edge on build quality. Outback - the 05 will drop 200lbs while it is stronger, stiffer, safer chasis - mostly through extensive use of aluminum, so the car is stronger with the same engines. Think of it as being Audi-ized. I would wait for the new one and it is just a few months away. The Japanese-made new Outback has been out for a while. Ours will be the same car but made in US. It's a very good looking car indeed.   Outbacks and Mazda 6 3.0 wagons will cost about 2x a Focus SE wagon and this is no exageration.   #1 rule in cars - get what you really want.   FWIW
#208 of 613 Cjsb & Jimjps by carguy04 Apr 12, 2004 (7:47 pm)
Hi Guys.. quite something the 3 of us are shopping the same cars, especially the ZTW. Like yourselves, this seems to have become a hobby of mine too.. researching various models and taking test drives. But, I tend to keep a car for several years, and want to make a good decision. Thanks again for all of your info and insights. Would you happen to know the ZTW's cargo capacity? One consumer book I have lists it at 73 cu ft. Is this correct? That's very close to the Taurus wagon at 81 cu ft. I hope to test drive the Mazda 3 Hatchback soon, even though the price I got from the dealer is $2000 more than I could buy a ZTW for. The Mazda 6 wagon is quite attractive but expensive. Seems like the majority of these wagons will be loaded versions from what I have viewed online from dealers inventories, with MSRPs $26000 and higher. Plus, I agree with you that its mpg isn't that great. A couple of things about the ZTW that concerns me is the reliability history along with its high depreciation rate. Although the current $2500 rebate does soften the depreciation blow a little. I have been spotting some ZTWs lately around town... bright red, medium green and black. I noticed on the black one it had a chrome molding above the rear license plate. Till next time...
#209 of 613 carguy & jimjps by cjsb Apr 13, 2004 (7:05 pm)
Thanks for the input on the engine Jim. Have you seen the '05 in person (uglified?)? I agree about the Matrix...1.8 is weak, styling is not to my preference and usable cargo area is limited. PT not for me aesthetically. Jetta - I can get a good deal on as I have a relative at a dealership near here, but even still, overpriced, smaller rear seat and cargo area and sketchy reliability. As does carguy, I intend to keep each car for several years (10?) minimum, so Jetta is dicey (had an Audi and paid for it literally/figuratively as it aged). Forrester/Outback seem very good vehicles...though value (subjective) may be an issue based upon somewhat higher prices. Options seem to really add up to extra $$ on these two. Mazda 6...seems a great car but it will likely be a while until real negotiations/incentives can happen here. Mazda 3...impressive...but I need the extra cargo area the ZTW would offer. Not to mention the 3's still have not come down in price enough to be in this race. Carguy: ZTW's cargo cap. doesn't seem far off taurus...though i don't have #'s. Taurus seems antiquated when the two are driven back-to-back. As per reliability/recalls...stats suggest the 2003 models and beyond have overcome this issue. Lastly, I think you're dead on about the rapid depreciation. I've seriously considered a used '03 as a result. Price is $18500 as opposed to $23500. Do either of you think the $5k savings is worth considering this option. Or is new the way to go as I hope to keep this car many years? And yup...chrome molding above rear plate here too.
#210 of 613 Cjsb.. Used '03 vs New '04 ZTW by carguy04 Apr 14, 2004 (10:15 pm)
Sounds like you have located a nice used '03 ZTW in your area, huh? That is quite a savings over a new '04, and you would be avoiding that first year depreciation drop. If it has the options and color you like, and average or less than average miles, then I would give it serious consideration. You still would have a good portion of its' warranty coverage available. Of course, like with buying any used car, you need to have it inspected by an independent mechanic. Also, see if the dealer can print out a report for you with all the warranty repairs done on the car so far, and if was involved in any recalls and accidents. Also, find out if this car was serviced (ie for oil changes) at this same dealer who is selling it, and/or if the original owner left with the car any service receipts. I have never seen a used ZTW on any local dealer lots or in newspaper ads from private owners. Say, what's the price of gas in Toronto now? Last night, several stations in my town here in Colorado hit the $2.00 a gallon mark for the first time, for 87 octane, and $2.09 for 91 octane. So, another big reason why I am looking at a 4 cylinder car w/good mpg's for my next purchase.
#211 of 613 by cjsb Apr 15, 2004 (8:23 am)
Thanks for the tips. Dealers all over the city are now selling '03's that were rentals for the past year or so. Most have mileage in the 25-30K range. I'm wondering whether I should be reluctant with these "once were rentals"; particularly with the very good financing terms available for the '04. Private sales of '03's are scarce. 87 Octane is going for between $.60 to $.80 per liter depending on day/location. Average of about $.70/liter. If I'm converting correctly, I believe that's $2.65 a gallon in Can. currency, or the equivalent of about $1.95 U.S./gallon. Looks like we're about the same - ain't getting cheaper that's for sure. Another reason, like you, I'm considering the ZTW over some of the SUV's I like.
#212 of 613 This and that by jimjps Apr 15, 2004 (10:06 am)
IN the long run MPG will only be more of a consideration and I expect bigger energy "crunches" in the next 4-5 years, so I believe you are right to factor this in to your purchase.   I have only seen pix of the 05 FOcus. Now I see the 05 Kia Spectrum5 hatch is coming soon (see Canadian Driver road test). It's almost dead-ringer for Mazda3 hatch dimensionally and getting good reviews for drive quality. One source says it is actually up there with the Mazda3. That would be a huge jump for Kia. Nice interior, lots of cubby holes and loaded with SAB and SAC, traction control etc. Engine is 2.0 liter but with variable valves now. I know Kia has a bad reputation but it looks like a total new platform they put a lot of effort in and maybe they've got it nearly right. In the US they have 10 year 100K mile warranty. SO the hobbiest here has to wait and check it out! I don't think the MAzda3 will come down much in price because it is made in Japan. THey may be just be breaking even on it. ZTW volume, it used to be rated about 55 cu ft and now it seems to be rated 73 cu ft. I measured it and it seems 73 is closer. Just take the tape measure with you when you road test and take some notes. I actually figured out that we could sleep back there if need be but would have to remove the seat botton (two bolts) to clear my head.   Personally, I would take the ZTW over any small SUV. THe ride quality and handling will be so much better. THe ground clearance seems sufficient for some light dirt roading.   Note: Cars Direct is showing a 3K rebate on Focus now. Replies to this message: magneezo (Aug 29, 2005 4:49 pm)
#213 of 613 Used Rentals by carguy04 Apr 15, 2004 (8:06 pm)
Hey Cjsb, personally I wouldn't buy a rental car, as they are driven by so many people and in so many different types of weather, that the abuse factor is quite high, especially with mileage 25-30k. It would be too much of a risk for me, financially and the amount time the car could end up in the shop. The potential is there for too many repairs down the road with a rental. Have you found an '04 ZTW to your liking at a local dealer? I hope to test drive one this weekend, along with a Mazda 3 hatch. Not sure why Mazda is only offering the hatch with a black interior, except to save costs. Jimjps.. I checked Ford's website, and the Focus rebate is $2500, so not sure where Cars Direct is getting their $3000 amount. The college grad money is $400. Good idea to take a tape measure with me on the test drive. I too have only seen pics of the '05 sedan, front and rear views, none of the wagon yet. I have also considered a small SUV, like the Honda CR-V, but I haven't test drove one yet. I doubt Honda dealers are discounting the CR-V very much, and it would probably cost $6000 more than a ZTW from my calculations.
#214 of 613 Rentals/rebates by jimjps Apr 17, 2004 (12:52 pm)
I have to concur on risk of buying a rental car. I think some demented people almost feel obligated to try to destroy them. What kind of powertrain warranty do you get with such a car? I see I made typo in my last post, I meant the Mazda3 is NOT likely to come down much. Re: rebate - Now I see dealer adverts in the weekend paper saying 3K rebate also for Focus. So sounds like maybe the dealer has $500 more to play with now whether they admit it's a 3K rebate or not. BTW, do not underestimate your ability to deal way down on a Focus. One local dealer has 5-speed 2.3 SE wagon with ABS advertised for under 13K!! THey are not moving I think because most folks just don't want a 5-speed with an SE wagon. THat may be dealable to 12.5K now and his price is ~1K$ less than Carsdirect which I always took as near rock-bottom. ANyone should at least check the Carsdirect price (US) and make sure you are not paying more than this. If you are, just take the carsdirect number in with you and most dealers will at least match it, or lose the sale. My 5 cents....

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