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Hatchbacks Chevrolet Metro/Geo Metro Chevrolet/Geo Metro
1693 messages, Last post on Dec 05, 2009 at 7:53 PM
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Replying to: annielulu (Jul 26, 2009 12:16 am) I'm sorry it sometimes takes so long for me to get new insights; but that's just the way my mind works these days. There is another test you can do for free, which will determine whether the distributor pick up coil is the source of your problem (and I do believe that is the most likely issue at this time): Try push starting the car in second gear; by either having at least three healthy people push it by hand as fast as they can on a level or downhill slope, and engaging the clutch when the car is going at their maximum speed; or pushing it with another car, with a tire wedged as a cushion between the bumper of the push car and yours. Make sure the key is turned to the position where the dashboard warning lights are lit while you do. If the car starts, and does not subsequently restart with the starter; the distributor pick up coil is definitely bad. If you have not done the ignition switch bypass test through the cigarette lighter plug, as I previously explained; the start contacts in the ignition switch may be an alternate source of the problem. But if you did test the ignition switch by the method I suggested, and the car did not start at that time; then the distributor pick up coil is the only remaining possibility. I hope this helps!!! Joel |
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Replying to: senormechanico (Aug 02, 2009 5:02 pm) I am guessing that there is good flow; what I meant by that was, after a flush, the upper and lower hoses and the radiator were all heating up together, no cold spots in the radiator. The temp gauge will redline within a few seconds of applying gas, but it will drop to normal level just a quick after I let off the gas. Also, this doesn't happen when I rev the engine in neutral, only in gear. In neutral, the temp guage doesn't jump. Based off the post with suggestions after yours: It does not seem that the radiator is pulling from the reservior. I ran the car with the radiator cap off to get out the air; it is air free (from what I can tell) and still not pulling from the reservior. The fan is not kicking on, but I'm not getting the gauge over 1/2 just letting it idle, or reving the engine. The radiator fluid is mixed 50/50, I double checked that today. I'm hoping that helps, looking forward to any other suggestions. |
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Zaken 1: OK, finally found the problem. Underneath the fuel injector there is a little O ring that the injector sits on. Well, that stupid little ring was split from wear, so that the fuel supply was getting messed up. When the ring was replaced, the fuel got straightened out-we were able to put the fuel fuse in again and it started. However, I think that raw gas was slowly seeping into the pan after running down the cylinder walls slowly over a period of time. This resulted in a thinning of the oil so consequently I now have a rod bearing knock, but the car starts and runs ok now. From what I can ascertain, we can install 3 new rod bearings pretty simply by dropping the pan to install them. There doesn't appear to be anything major in the way to access the bearings. I wish to thank you very much for all of the help you offered. You put a lot of time into your suggestions, and I truly appreciate your help.
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Replying to: annielulu (Aug 12, 2009 7:59 pm) I'm delighted to hear that you found the problem!!! I would just like to suggest that I doubt the rod bearings were damaged by the diluted oil. So I believe that if you change the oil and filter, and then drive it a little, the knock should go away. A knock could also be caused if the ignition timing has been changed to an incorrect setting. |
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Well, I changed the oil and filter, 20W-50 grade oil, plus put in 16 oz or so of something called "Lucas Oil Stabilizer" and drove it around the block for about 5-10 minutes, but the knock was still there, it seemed to abate somewhat, and it gets quieter when accelerating and louder when just idling. Do you think it might get better over time? Not only that, but I now need a new starter or solenoid combo, as after all the trying to start it, the solenoid is acting up. I had to push it and pop the clutch to get it going. I wonder if I take off the starter, if somehow i can fix the solenoid. If I have to put in the rod bearings, I will. I do like the Metro, and when it does perform right, it is a great little car.
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Replying to: annielulu (Aug 12, 2009 10:48 pm) You can often distinguish between timing belt tensioner and valve train noises by holding your ear against the end of a broomstick, stethoscope or a wooden rod, while touching the other end to various parts of the engine, and listening carefully to hear where the noise is loudest. Timing belt tensioner noises would be most pronounced when touching the middle of the timing belt cover. Valve train noises would be loudest at the valve cover or the side of the cylinder head between the spark plugs (and this is where a non metallic rod is essential for safety). If the starter solenoid is defective, it cannot be fixed, but can be replaced. I hate to admit it; but I have forgotten whether this starter has a built in or a removable solenoid. I think it is integrated into the starter. Here again, perhaps it is not in the starter itself; but may be something as simple as a poor ground connection for a battery cable, corroded or loose battery cable clamps, or a loose wire from the ignition switch at the starter. It also might be a defective ignition switch or clutch pedal switch; so don't assume it is in the starter without proving it by trying to activate the starter with a jumper wire from the battery positive terminal to the tab on the starter where the wire from the ignition switch normally connects. |
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Zaken1: I got lucky. A local salvage yard had a used starter on the shelf which I got for $35.00. I put it in and it works great. The car starts right up now and runs great EXCEPT....... that knocking noise is definitely a rod bearing issue. My plan is to drop the pan and install 3 new rod bearings. There is hardly anything in the way, so access should be easy. Here is my question please: the car has 120,000 miles on it. Do you know what bearings I should get. Would you know the part number, etc. Thanks so much for your kind assistance and help.
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Replying to: annielulu (Aug 13, 2009 9:27 pm) 1> it does not make any sense to me that fuel dilution during a long period of cranking or local driving will take out rod bearings. This is because gasoline has some lubricating properties, and the loads and speeds which the engine was subjected to during the time when the injector was leaking were very low. So I just don't believe that this treatment would be anywhere near severe enough to take out the bearings. I have seen many engines run on diluted oil, and I have NEVER seen bearings become damaged as a result. It is only when an engine runs out of oil that this happens. 2> Furthermore (and perhaps even more significantly) any combination of load and lack of lubrication which would be sufficient to take out the bearings would probably also score the crank journals. So if your bearings are really wiped out; you probably need to have the crank reground, in order to keep from repeating the same scene. If you insist on replacing the bearings; please inspect the crank journals for scoring or bluing before you install new bearings. If the crank is scored or discolored from heat; then you'll need to have the crank remachined, in order for the new bearings to last anywhere near a normal length of time. 3> The knocking created by loose rod bearings is directly proportional to the amount of load on the motor. It is quietest at idle, and becomes louder the harder you accelerate. But you said that your engine's noise is loudest at idle; and becomes quieter as you accelerate. And this is just NOT what bad bearings sound like. 4> There is another type of knock which sounds totally ominous, and which DOES sound like what you described. It once convinced me that a 3 month old Toyota Celica had something major broken inside its motor. This noise was loudest at idle. It sounded to me like a heavy metal bar was banging around inside the motor. When I first heard it on my client's nearly new Celica, I told her to not drive the car one block more; and to have it towed to the dealership for warranty repair of an obviously defective motor. And she did so. Some time later, I encountered her again, and asked her what the problem turned out to be with her car. And she told me that the dealership had just run some carbon solvent through the combustion chambers, and that had completely cleared up the noise!!! They then told her that the noise, which is referred to as a "carbon knock," was caused by her use of cheap fuel that had insufficient quantities of engine cleaning additives in it. And that had led to the build up of carbon in the combustion chambers to such a degree that it effectively increased the compression ratio to the point where the engine went into uncontrolled detonation at idle. The dealership then told her to NEVER use any fuel except Chevron (which contains adequate quantities of carbon solvents). And the problem never came back. Some years before that, I had the same experience with a Honda motorcycle which I had bought new and lovingly maintained for 80,000 miles (except for always using cheap fuel). And I naively misdiagnosed that sound as a broken piston skirt; and as a result literally gave the machine away. I later learned that the person who bought it never did anything to the motor, and it gave him no problems afterward. Carbon knock is something that we old timers never encountered in the past. It is a unique consequence of a glitch in the chemistry of modern reformulated fuels; in which the additives which are used to replace lead turned out to produce heavy carbon deposits in combustion chambers. Some fuel manufacturers (Chevron, Shell, and Texaco) have developed additives which counteract this carbon build up. But those additives are expensive; so the cheaper fuels don't contain them. And that's where the carbon knock comes from. But it's your car, and your life. You can do what you want with it. Since I've been down that road before, I am just trying to save you a bunch of time, money, and frustration. But you can override my advice, (at your own risk) if you want. If you log on to Rock Auto's website, and select your car and engine model; scroll down to the "engine" category, click on "connecting rod bearing" and you can use any of the brands listed there. I personally would not use the Clevite/Perfect Circle bearing, because it is made of aluminum; which has poorer anti friction properties than the other brands. But the caveat in selecting bearing sizes is that some engines are manufactured with undersize crankshaft journals (as a result of a machining error when the crank was first manufactured). So those cranks would require a thicker bearing to achieve the proper clearances. Some connecting rods are remachined to a larger ID during overhaul, which also would require a thicker bearing. The situation is compounded because some manufacturers (namely Beck Arnley) call thicker bearings "oversize" (which is literally what they are); while all the other listed manufacturers call thicker bearings "undersize" (because they are made to match an undersize crankshaft). This is just a difference in semantics. All bearings which differ from stock dimensions are thicker bearings. Nobody makes a bearing which is thinner than the stock part; regardless of what they call it. But, since some new crankshafts have undersize journals, and some used engines have had their crankshaft remachined during an overhaul; you cannot assume any crankshaft has stock diameter journals. The journals must be accurately measured with a micrometer or dial caliper before you can know what size bearing will fit properly. Wear on the journal is not an issue in bearing selection (unless you have a Model T Ford). The journal will either be stock, or smaller than stock in .010"; 020"; or .030" increments. And the connecting rod inside diameter will either be stock; or larger than stock in .010"; or 020" increments. If your crank journals are stock diameter, while the con rod ID is .010" larger than stock; then you'd need a .010" thicker bearing. If the crank journals are .010" smaller than stock, and the con rod ID is stock; then you'd also need a .010" thicker bearing. Rod bearings for the Metro are made in stock thickness, and in steps of .010" (.25mm); .020 (.50mm); and .030" (.75mm) thicker than stock. If you look at the part image for the Sealed Power # 31140RA bearing, there is a handy chart which lists the stock crank journal diameter as 1.6530-1.6535". This chart also lists the ID of the stock con rod as 1.7716-1.7721". Wear on journals is less than .001-.002" so it is not a factor in bearing selection. And the oil clearance is also not pertinent to this operation. Just measure the crank journal and rod ID, compare the numbers to stock; and you'll know what size bearing to buy.
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Replying to: zaken1 (Aug 14, 2009 1:38 am) Thanks a million for taking all this time. It started my day with a bang!
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Replying to: vanillalatte (Aug 14, 2009 2:58 am) |
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