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Hatchbacks Chevrolet Metro/Geo Metro Chevrolet/Geo Metro
1692 messages, Last post on Oct 24, 2009 at 5:27 PM
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Put 3 new Autolite #63 plugs in, gapped at .030. Still just spins and will not start. I'm going to bed and worry about this tomorrow. Sigh.
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Replying to: zaken1 (May 29, 2009 8:28 pm) Replaced the Crankshaft Position Sensor- no change. Flashed the ECM to expunge any bad learned behavior- no change. Battery voltage with ignition 'ON' : 13.03V, 11.92V while cranking. (Drop of 1.11V) Coil + to Batt - : 12.89V at rest, 11.77V while cranking. (Drop of 1.12 V) Checking the Pickup coil in the distributor, I am getting 165 Ohms, rather than the 200 to 255 the book says, but I'm getting a pretty decent spark before it quits... Also, and probably more significant, the harness for the Crank Sensor should have a minimum of 1M Ohm on each side. I get the meg on one side, but the other comes out to only 24K Ohms. Thinking maybe ground was leaking through a fault in the ECM, I swapped for my other ECM- all same same. So My guess is that the Crankshaft Position Sensor is doing it's job, and the ECM is doing it's job, but the communication between them garbles the message and the ECM cuts off the spark after one camshaft rotation. (Why it would even have the idea of doing such a thing is a matter for another, more philosophical forum) Anyone know of a good reference for the wiring harness that gives connector colors and pin defs? (NO hair left- now gnashing teeth and looking for a good electrical engineer whom I can bribe with mead....)
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Replying to: shaggyman1 (May 30, 2009 4:07 pm) So I would definitely replace the pickup coil before doing anything else. Did you read the 24K resistance on one side of the crank sensor harness while the harness was plugged into the ECM? I don't believe that is how they intended it to be tested. Try disconnecting the harness plug from the ECM and then checking the resistance... I believe this will solve your problem; but since you asked about detailed wiring diagrams; there are two excellent ones out there. One is in the Chevrolet factory service manual for the 1996 Metro; and the other is in the Mitchell electrical systems manual for 1996 model year vehicles. The Mountain View, CA public library has both of those books. If your local public library does not have either one; they may be able to order one from the regional warehouse for your County library system. You can also buy those manuals online (but Mitchell manuals are very pricey). A friendly garage may let you Xerox those diagrams from their manual (if they have one). Or you can bribe someone to Xerox them from a library that has the manuals.
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Replying to: kreuzer (Apr 07, 2008 8:01 am) This is where an odd grinding noise comes in sounding like a manual trans being shifted without the use of the clutch. Mash the gas it stops but the whole time accelerating it makes a noise like a turbo charging up. Any Idea what this maybe? 
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Replying to: annielulu (May 30, 2009 12:14 am) I hope you had the fuel pump fuse in place when you tried to start the engine, after putting the new plugs in it. If the fuse was not in; the engine would not have fired. I suggested removing the fuse so that the engine would not flood when you were doing spark tests or other tests which did not require the engine to run. But the fuel pump definitely needs to be running when you try to start the car (unless it is already severely flooded). But it would not be flooded if it has sat for more than a few hours. It is also important to wait until the pump sound stops, after you turn the key on to the position where the warning lights on the dashbard come on; before turning the key the rest of the way to activate the starter. If you try to start it before the pump stops running; the engine will be starved for fuel and will probably not fire. Since you are getting a steady (albeit possibly weak) spark; I believe the .030" plug gap should have eliminated the possibility of a weak spark being the cause of the problem. So that brings us back to potential fuel system problems. From the symptoms you originally posted (engine quitting as soon as you give it any throttle) it seems very likely that your fuel filter has plugged up, or the fuel pump has gone bad (even though you can hear the pump running). So I'd like to see whether the fuel pressure test you once did would now still produce a strong stream. If there is now little or no fuel flow; the first thing I would do is to replace the fuel filter. It is underneath the car, on the driver's side, just in front of the fuel tank (about even with the front edge of the rear tire). There is a sheet metal cover under the filter and fuel pump; which is held on by two bolts. This can be a messy job; as fuel is likely to run out of the hoses as soon as they are disconnected. To minimize the likelihood of fuel leakage; be sure to remove the fuel pump fues, and then turn the key on briefly, to bleed of any residual line pressure. Also briefly remove the fuel tank cap, to let any air pressure escape; and then put the cap back on before disconnecting any fuel lines. If you have to leave one or both fuel lines disconnected for any length of time; a clean 1/4 inch diameter bolt can be used to plug the line. I hope this helps!!! |
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Thank you Zaken1. Yes I did have the fuse in when I tried to start it after gapping the plugs as you suggested, but, alas-no start. I haven't worked on the car for 2 days and I am getting discouraged to the point that I hate to even try to start it. All I do is run the battery down. So I'm going to have to jump it next time I try. The last time I tried to start it, when I took the key out-it just kept on running. I had to pull the negative battery terminal off to shut it down. I know that's bad for the alternator, but what else could I do.Whenever the battery is run down it does this key thing. I'll try the gas check for fuel flow tomorrow. What's the best way to do it. I did it before, but it was awhile ago and I forgot how to do it. Which line is the best to disconnect to examine the fuel flow. I guess that at some point I could pull the gas fuse and dump some gas into it at some point, but I'm afraid to put too much in and flood it. About how much should I prime it with-1 oz, 2 oz? Should the little throttle flap be open (held open with a screwdriver) when trying to start it after priming, or should it be closed. Does the air filter have to be connected to it after priming and before trying to start it then. Somewhere I think I read that if the air filter assembly is not on it the sensor will make the mixture too rich? I guess when I check the fuel pressure by disconnecting the feed line, it will confirm that the fuel pump is good or bad. Also, the fuel filter, right. I still haven't replaced the coil. Keeping the aforementioned in mind, if all these things check out what the heck could I check next???????? I have a new belt and timed it by lining up the little white mark with the zero on the timing indicator-and having the rotor pointing straight up at 12 o'clock. Rotor and cap are new, plugs are new, plug wires are new, battery was new (now discharged), all grounds and connections are tight. This little car is more complicated to me than any other car I ever worked on. It's a good little car when it runs but has so many sensors, electrics, etc. I liked working on cars 40 years ago when all you needed was hand tools. Thanks much for your latest response. It gives me renewed impetus to try again.
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Replying to: annielulu (Jun 02, 2009 11:45 pm) But when you install a timing belt; it is not accurate enough to just turn the cam sprocket so that the distributor rotor points straight up; while the crank pulley lines up with the TDC mark!!! This is nowhere near precise enough for valve timing. It is all too easy to make an error in judging which angle of the rotor is really straight up. The test I suggested earlier about lining up the timing marks and then looking at the rotor position is only useful for finding out whether the belt has grossly slipped or broken. It is not accurate enough to use for setting up a new belt installation. In order to avoid such errors; it is first necessary to align the timing mark on the lower sprocket (inside the timing cover) with the pointer that is directly above that sprocket; and AT THE SAME TIME, align the two marks on the sides of the cam sprocket with the top edge of the casting for the cylinder head (which will place the two marks on the cam sprocket parallel to the top edge of the head). The belt tensioner spring should then be installed and given a little hand pressure assistance to pull the belt tight; and the tensioner adjustment bolt and tensioner mounting bolt should then BOTH be properly tightened. The engine should then be rotated at least one or two revolutions with the starter; and the alignment of the marks on the sprockets then rechecked.. This is necessary to confirm that the marks are still correctly aligned. Even being just one tooth off will mess up the way the motor runs. So will having the belt tension set too loose. It is all too easy to make an error in aligning those marks when the belt is first installed. If you did not use that procedure when you installed the timing belt; I would strongly recommend pulling the timing cover and rechecking the belt tension and the alignment of the marks, according to what I wrote here. I don't remember which fuel hose is the supply and which is the return. If you pull one hose, and nothing comes out when you turn the key on; it is either the return hose, or the pump or filter are bad. If you then pull the second hose, and nothing comes out of it, either; it is definitely a clogged filter or bad pump. Regarding priming the fuel system; this should NOT be necessary in a fuel injected engine. If the fuel pump and filter are good; the electronics will do the rest. And if the plugs are getting wet when you crank the engine; this proves it is getting fuel. The only time it is appropriate to prime a fuel injected engine is when you've concluded the fuel system is broken; and want to confirm that it will fire or run if you add some fuel externally. Two ounces is an appropriate quantity to add. The throttle butterfly should be briefly opened during or after the time the fuel is poured in; to let the fuel into the manifold. Then hold the throttle just barely open while cranking. The air temperature sensor in the air filter housing must be plugged into the wiring harness when you try to start the motor. Otherwise, it will make the mixture too rich. But the housing can be placed anywhere the wires will reach; and the actual air filter does not have to be in place. The PCV valve must also be connected to its supply hose, and be plugged into the manifold. |
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Thanks Zaken1. A friend of mine with mechanical aptitude put the new timing belt on. It ran very well for a few days, but then my current starting problem surfaced. So, I'm pretty sure the belt and timing is ok. I am going to try out the other things you suggested. Thanks |
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I took off a fuel line to check for fuel delivery. Standing in front of the car, the line that is in the front of the throttle body (not the one on the right side) is the one I took off. I put the end of it into a coffee can and cranked the engine. After just a few revolutions the can had a good deal of fuel in it, maybe about 1/4-1/3 of a cup or so. So I'm pretty sure that it is getting enough fuel. I suppose now that I can rule out the fuel pump and filter as being a problem.
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Replying to: zaken1 (May 30, 2009 6:57 pm) Now to get a throttle body....In checking some of the vacuum functions, I came upon the line from the TB to theEGR which is drawing NO vaccum at all, and the only way I can get it to start is to pull off another (live) line, and goose the throttle stop up to make it 'idle' at 1700 RPM (below which it dies), and if I put the vacuum line back or block it with my finger it immediately dies. I think this funky TB is absolutely the root of all my woes- explains why I could never get the TPS and idle motor to behave, the flooding at startup, the ...etc.
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